Secrets of Web Auth and React Performance Tips
Speakers discuss passwordless web authentication, React performance optimization, and prepping for React Miami in an engaging panel conversation
Episode Description
JavaScript Jam previews React Miami talks on passwordless auth with WebAuthn and web performance literacy with speakers Will Johnson and Henri Helvetica.
Episode Summary
This JavaScript Jam live session features two upcoming React Miami conference speakers—Will Johnson from Auth0 by Okta and Henri Helvetica from Catchpoint (WebpageTest)—discussing their talk topics ahead of the event. Will shares how his frustration with complex workplace passwords led him to explore WebAuthn and biometric authentication, arguing that the industry should move toward eliminating passwords entirely rather than layering more security measures on top of them. The conversation touches on password strength, user fatigue from managing over a hundred credentials, and the adoption hurdles biometrics face with less tech-savvy users. Henri previews his talk "R is for React," an alphabetical tour of web performance concepts paired with real data from React sites, designed to boost performance literacy among developers. He explains how modern web performance has grown more complex, highlighting the shift to mobile-first traffic, the surprising dominance of JavaScript as the heaviest page asset, and emerging metrics like the rage click. The hosts also promote their upcoming Miami Jam game show, a diversity scholarship initiative sponsored by Auth0, and community meetups around the conference, wrapping with enthusiastic plans for food, beach volleyball, and networking in Miami.
Chapters
00:00:00 - Introductions and Setting the Stage
The episode opens with casual banter before host Scott Steinlage officially welcomes listeners to JavaScript Jam, the weekly Wednesday live show covering web development and JavaScript. He introduces the guests—Will Johnson, a senior developer advocate at Auth0 by Okta, and Henri Helvetica from Catchpoint—both of whom are speaking at the upcoming React Miami conference.
Scott emphasizes the open-mic nature of the space, encouraging developers of all experience levels to come up, ask questions, and share opinions. Dev Agrawal also introduces himself as a media partner for React Miami and teases an upcoming live game show featuring trivia questions for conference speakers, setting up the collaborative energy that carries through the rest of the episode.
00:05:49 - Henri's Background and the Rise of Web Performance
Henri Helvetica introduces himself and his role at Catchpoint, where he joined after the company acquired WebpageTest. He describes how the web performance space has grown from a niche concern into a mainstream topic that developers now readily recognize, recalling a time when mentioning "performance" would confuse people into thinking he was a dancer.
He teases his upcoming React Miami talk, explaining that it started as a lightning talk idea years ago and has since expanded into a full presentation focused on performance literacy. Henri argues that as attention to performance has increased, so has its complexity, and developers need a stronger foundational understanding of performance concepts to build effectively for today's web.
00:11:12 - Will on WebAuthn and the Case Against Passwords
Will Johnson explains how working at a security company with strict password requirements made him dread daily logins, until a mandatory switch to fingerprint authentication changed his perspective entirely. That personal experience ignited his interest in WebAuthn and biometric login, leading him to advocate for a passwordless future where users authenticate with something they inherently possess rather than something they must remember.
The group discusses the current state of passwordless adoption, noting that most companies still use biometrics only as a second factor rather than a primary login method. Will highlights user fatigue—citing that the average person has around 108 passwords—and argues that rather than adding complexity to passwords, the industry should work to eliminate them, making security seamless for everyday users like his grandmother or a parent signing up to coach soccer.
00:20:30 - Password Strength, Literacy, and User Behavior
Henri raises the issue of weak password choices, referencing demonstrations showing how modern computing power can crack simple passwords in seconds. The conversation turns to password habits, with Anthony noting that the most common leaked password is simply "123456," and Will sharing a viral tweet capturing widespread password fatigue.
Will frames the problem from a user empathy perspective, explaining that people are exhausted from creating and managing credentials for countless services, most of which don't warrant high-security passwords. He advocates for removing the burden from users altogether rather than expecting them to adopt better habits, while Henri introduces the concept of ROT13 ciphers as a personal password strategy, tying back to the broader theme that literacy—whether in security or performance—can dramatically change outcomes.
00:26:47 - Henri's React Miami Talk: R is for React
Henri previews his talk "R is for React," which walks through the alphabet associating each letter with a web performance technology, term, or concept, enriched with real data from React sites gathered through tools like HTTP Archive, CrUX, and BigQuery. He gives examples like discussing the AVIF image format or revealing that 53% of React sites have a Largest Contentful Paint over 2.5 seconds.
The format is designed as an onboarding experience for performance newcomers, helping them understand what's happening under the hood of React websites. Henri explains that the talk works regardless of framework because it's fundamentally about the web itself, and he finds the data revelations consistently eye-opening for audiences who rarely examine their sites' actual performance profiles.
00:34:01 - Why Web Performance Is More Complicated Today
Anthony asks Henri what makes performance more complex now than in the past, prompting an analogy to sprinting—just as a slow start out of the blocks likely means losing the race, a slow Time to First Byte typically signals an overall slow site. Henri explains modern performance as a game of prioritization, where developers must decide which resources to load first to optimize Largest Contentful Paint and Core Web Vitals scores.
He emphasizes that understanding how browsers work is essential to making good performance decisions, calling the browser "the greatest application on the planet." The discussion covers how the shift to mobile-dominant traffic since 2016 has changed the calculus, with roughly 80% of top sites now accessed on mobile, yet many developers still deliver desktop-sized assets to mobile users.
00:45:25 - Where Performance Meets Security
Anthony bridges the two guest topics by asking how performance and security intersect. Will suggests that slow, janky experiences can erode user trust, while Anthony notes that adding security layers inherently adds friction and latency. Henri rounds out the discussion by pointing to outdated dependencies that browsers may block for security reasons, creating single points of failure that can tank both performance and functionality.
The conversation highlights how waterfall charts serve as a site's fingerprint, revealing the impact of every resource on page load. Henri notes that what was once dominated by heavy images has shifted—JavaScript is now frequently the heaviest asset on a page, sometimes creating a degraded experience invisible to the naked eye but painfully felt by users through unresponsive interfaces.
00:49:15 - Community Plugs and React Miami Excitement
Scott delivers a station break encouraging listeners to follow the speakers, subscribe to the JavaScript Jam newsletter, and tune into the upcoming Miami Jam game show. Dev reminds the audience they can submit trivia questions for the game show, and the hosts mention their Thursday show, Anthony and Scott's Web Development Adventure.
Henri briefly returns to share his philosophy that performance work transcends any single framework—he's interested in any site that shows up on the web. He notes React's enduring momentum approaching its 10th anniversary and reiterates that JavaScript bundles have become surprisingly heavy, sometimes surpassing images as the largest page assets, creating experiences that look polished on the surface but struggle underneath.
00:58:09 - Miami Plans, Bodega, and Diversity Scholarship
Will shares his enthusiasm for Miami, calling it his home away from home and detailing plans to bring his family, eat at Bodega restaurant, and host beach volleyball as part of React Miami's developer wellness activities. A listener jumps in to cosign the Bodega recommendation and invites others to join a small dining group, sparking real-time networking.
Will announces that Auth0 is sponsoring a diversity scholarship for React Miami, providing tickets and mentorship to emerging developers from underrepresented backgrounds. As a self-taught developer himself, he's passionate about guiding newcomers through the fears and challenges of entering the industry. The episode closes with the hosts celebrating the organic connections formed during the space and encouraging everyone to follow the speakers for continued value.
Transcript
00:00:00 - Scott Steinlage
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00:00:57 - Anthony Campolo
Human music. All right.
00:01:05 - Scott Steinlage
So it's interesting.
00:01:10 - Anthony Campolo
What's interesting?
00:01:18 - Scott Steinlage
There we go. That's interesting.
00:01:21 - Anthony Campolo
You know, it's interesting. Saban has a new profile picture.
00:01:25 - Scott Steinlage
Where? Where, Saban? Oh yes, I saw that the other day.
00:01:30 - Anthony Campolo
Dr. Saban now, apparently.
00:01:33 - Scott Steinlage
What's up, Doc? And what's up, Doc? Saban is just trying to [unclear], saving the world one day at a time, y'all, you know. Yeah. All right. Yo, what's up, everybody? Welcome to JavaScript Jam Live every Wednesday at 12pm Pacific Standard Time. You can come and have a blast with us talking about everything web development and JavaScript related. If you're not hype right now, then I don't know why you're even in here. Yeah, get hype. Nah. For real though, thank you all so much for hanging out with us today. We're gonna have a really good time talking about everything WebAuthn, React performance tips, all that good stuff. We got our man Will Johnson in the house. And what's up, everybody? Go ahead and invite Henri up here too.
00:02:40 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, I sent invites too. Yeah, I figured I'd just invite Dev as well. You want to introduce yourself? You look like you already got your speaker role going.
00:02:51 - Will Johnson
Yo, what's up, everybody? Thanks for having me. My name is Will. I'm a senior developer advocate at Auth0 by Okta, and I hate passwords, so by default I love WebAuthn. Also looking forward to hanging out in beautiful Miami if it's not raining next week.
00:03:13 - Scott Steinlage
Yes. Hopefully we get... yeah, hopefully it's a nice time and not too much rain, like you were saying. Although Florida, you know, it's like every 30 minutes, right? I mean that's kind of how it works.
00:03:24 - Will Johnson
Yeah. So hopefully the forecast I was looking at on Apple Weather... it was saying it was going to rain like every day, like thunderstorms and stuff. So I hope they're wrong and the wind blows, you know, like in Costa Rica, and then it misses Florida or something. You know how weather works, right?
00:03:45 - Anthony Campolo
I actually used to be a weatherologist in my previous life.
00:03:49 - Scott Steinlage
Weatherologist? Yeah. Meteorologist, weatherologist, right. Yeah, that's what it is. Awesome. Well, super happy to have you here, man. Super glad. We're really excited for Miami as well, and just to hear more today about what that's going to be like. A little taste here and there, a little touch of some things, sneak peek, you know. Yeah. So I do want to say this real quick before we really just get started with everything. After we do one more introduction with Henri, and then myself and Anthony, I want to just say that if you're a beginner or you're an advanced web developer, whether you've just been starting this game or been at it for a minute, it doesn't matter. We want to hear from everybody. So please, please, please feel free to request to come up here, ask questions, make statements, comments, facts, opinions, it don't matter. We want to hear it all, okay? Why? Because that brings more value to the space, all right? If you are feeling like you have an inkling, an inkling, just to have a little bit of a question out there or something, please come on up.
00:05:15 - Scott Steinlage
Don't be afraid. It's going to be fun, for real. We are very open to everybody commenting and talking, right? Like I said, more value. The more the merrier, right? That's the term. Okay. We mean it very, very much. An open-mic concept, all right? With that being said, we'll pass it off to Henri real quick and he can make an intro of himself as well. And then Anthony and I will kick it off and we'll go from there. Henri.
00:05:48 - Henri Helvetica
Good afternoon, folks. Can I be heard? Because I'm using this bizarre contraption here, so I just want to make sure you guys can hear me.
00:05:55 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, you sound good.
00:05:56 - Henri Helvetica
Sound great. Thank you so much. Good afternoon, folks. Thanks for having me. First of all, my name's Henri and I work at this fantastic company called Catchpoint. And I've been there for, let me see, about a year and a half right now. I joined the company after they acquired this amazing tool called WebPageTest. And I was brought on to sort of grow that part of the business simply because it was probably one of the best tools, if not the best around by some, that wasn't really well known, you know. And at the same time, this was happening at a point where performance was finally becoming what we like to say in French, du jour, and people were starting to pay a lot more attention to it. So the timing was perfect there. That being said, I've been hanging out in the performance space for a little while now, back when it was fairly lean, we'll say, you know. We'd sit there and talk about performance and folks would be like, oh, so you dance? And it's like, no, I don't, you know? So I'd have to mention web performance. But now when you mention performance, people pretty much know what you're talking about. So yes, I'm going to be in Miami next year. Next year, pardon me, next week. And it's actually one of my favorite talks because it's... I don't say it's interactive, but it's a little interesting. It's an idea that I had several years ago as a lightning talk, and I expanded it to sort of a full talk about performance actually in general because, and I'll get into this probably during this talk, but I think as there's been an increase in attention to performance, I also believe that there should be an added bit of literacy as well when it comes to performance because, you know, it's not what it used to be. Performance is a little bit more complicated. And I have a really good time talking about the need for literacy and kind of going over some technologies and topics around perf.
00:08:19 - Henri Helvetica
So yeah, that's a bit of a ramble, but that's what I'm here for, and next week obviously as well.
00:08:29 - Scott Steinlage
Hey, we love the rambles, okay. We can do that all day. We love it. Talk, talk, talk. Absolutely. Yeah. That's what we're here for, right? Spaces where we chat it up. Thank you so much for the intro and, you know, giving a little bit of what you're going to be doing this week and or this upcoming week in React Miami. So excited for that. Awesome. So yeah, I'm Scott Steinlage and I am the technical community manager at edge.io and co-host of JavaScript Jam.
00:09:01 - Anthony Campolo
And Anthony. Hello, my name is Anthony Campolo. I am a developer advocate at edge.io and co-host of JavaScript Jam. Before we get into our interview segment, I also wanted to give Dev a chance to intro himself and then give a bit of a sneak peek of the upcoming game show event we're doing. So Dev, intro yourself and just remind people what's going on there.
00:09:34 - Dev Agrawal
What is up, people? Hope you guys are enjoying this beautiful Wednesday afternoon. Thank you very much, Scott. I'm just here trying to put my game show hat on. Let's see if I can be a game show host. This is my first time, but if you guys haven't met me already, my name is Dev. Nice to meet you all. I am also a media partner for React Miami. If you guys are showing up next week in Miami, I'm looking forward to meeting you. As a reminder, this week we are hosting a live game show with some of the React Miami speakers. That is going to be fun. We will have some trivia questions around React, around some other adjacent technologies, some adjacent concepts, whatever the speakers are talking about. It's going to be a super fun, super insightful show. We are going to learn a lot about React, about all these things that the speakers are so motivated to talk about next week. But today I'm really looking forward to listening to, or hearing from, Will and Henri about what their ideas are, what motivated you guys to give this talk or just like invest so much of your time into this topic, into this small area of web development that you guys are talking about that you guys are now experts in.
00:11:00 - Dev Agrawal
And that's all for me also. Yeah. Appreciate the invite. Thanks for having me up here for sure.
00:11:11 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. Cool. So why don't we dive in. We got Will's topic first in the titles. Completely random chance, but let's go ahead and let him start off.
00:11:27 - Will Johnson
Yeah. So I got started with the WebAuthn thing, of course, because at work I work for a security identity company, which is Auth0 by Okta. So basically, when you're working for a security company, there are certain things that you got to do because they want to keep, you know, our data safe and the customer data safe and things like that. And you definitely won't want to be in the news because your employer got hacked or something like that. That would be like the worst. So because of that we have really, really strenuous things that we have to do for passwords, like a lot of requirements. And it was annoying. Typing in that password every day was super, super annoying because it was super long. I eventually memorized it, which I was surprised by. It's like a ton of characters, but somehow I memorized it. But every day it got annoying typing in that password. And then we had a manual update where we had to log in with our fingerprint on our work computer. And so fingerprint login has been around, right?
00:12:47 - Will Johnson
It's always been on MacBooks. They got it on Android phones, had it on the iPhone with Touch ID for a minute, we've had Face ID. We've had the ability to log in for a while using something outside of a password. But I was always, I don't know, scared to. I'm like, I don't want them to have my fingerprint and so then I was forced to. And then I was like, wow, this is so much better than entering in this out-of-control password every day. So I started to look more into it, like, okay, what's really going on? And that's how I started to learn about WebAuthn, because I literally hate passwords on so many different levels. And WebAuthn was super convenient and eliminated a ton of the issues I had with passwords. So that's when I started looking into using biometrics and other types of ways of logging in.
00:13:46 - Henri Helvetica
When you say it was out of control, like how many characters are we talking about?
00:13:56 - Will Johnson
I'll... it was double digits and it was less than 25. But it had to be at least double digits.
00:14:10 - Anthony Campolo
I just checked. My master password is 26, which I do have memorized.
00:14:18 - Henri Helvetica
I have one that's like base level. Let me see if I can count it in my head. That's like base level, like 13. Oh, no, wait. 1, 2, 3, 4. Yeah, it's base level. It's like 13. And then I add a particular sort of, you know, cipher. Kind of ROT13 it a bit, you know. So I can usually be away from a particular service for a couple years, but I'll probably get the password within like the third try or something. By the way, ROT13 is when, for those... I just kind of threw that in there. But ROT13 is when you shift like 13 letters from a particular character. So I don't know if you took an A and took like the 14th letter and you did that with your entire phrase. That's what they call ROT13. So I remember when I discovered that I was like, oh, oh, this is gangster. So I kind of kept that in mind ever since.
00:15:27 - Anthony Campolo
It's so gangster. This goes all the way back to Julius Caesar. This is a type of substitute cipher. I learned all this stuff when I got into crypto. It's actually a really fascinating history that goes back thousands of years.
00:15:44 - Henri Helvetica
Awesome.
00:15:47 - Anthony Campolo
Cool. Yeah. You want to talk a little more, Will, about kind of like why you... so you already kind of said, like, why you're interested in this topic. I guess, how does this relate specifically to the work you do with Okta?
00:16:05 - Will Johnson
It relates because since Auth0 by Okta is a security company and my particular part is for consumer applications and SaaS applications. When you're dealing with user data, we want to make sure that anyone who's building with our SDKs or using our service is able to have strong authentication that they can trust and that's easy for the users. Sometimes we have a lot of things that we try to do to passwords to make them safer, which are also annoying. Right. You have a password manager, right? Yeah, you can do that. But does my grandmother want to download a password manager? No, she just wants to log on and do the thing that she's trying to do. You can use an authenticator app and go back and forth between that code or use multi-factor authentication. We constantly add things to passwords to make them more secure instead of doing what I think personally is the smart thing, which is to get rid of passwords. So because there are a lot of steps that go into handling biometrics, we can actually take out a lot of that friction and have that in your web application in a way that's standard, in a way that's secure without having to worry about all the odds and ends that go into it.
00:17:44 - Will Johnson
So that's how WebAuthn relates to Auth0 by Okta and one of our recent events that we had last year called Developer Days, where we went to different cities giving demos, was based upon having a passwordless future where we can come in, we can log in with our fingerprint, with our face, with our voice, which I don't know, with AI, I don't know if that's going to be a good one going forward, but something that we own that's on us, that we don't have to remember because it's part of us and log in that way securely.
00:18:27 - Scott Steinlage
I got a question, but do you have any examples of any companies that have been that forward-thinking and have actually implemented this where maybe a startup or something has just done away with passwords completely and only gone for biometric authorization?
00:18:50 - Will Johnson
That's a great question. And honestly I do not. The only cases I know are people using it as a second factor of authentication, when you log in with a password and then it says, you know, use your Face ID or fingerprint to go to the next level. And I think, I'm not sure because I haven't turned it on, but I think Discover... I know that their app asked me to log in with Face ID, so maybe, yeah. So that means the only thing that I know personally that kind of has it where you don't... but you still have to register first with a password.
00:19:33 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. It would be interesting, you know, if there was a case where that actually had played out and had success. Because I wonder if it would deter people from signing up who are not comfortable with it or how many people are actually not comfortable with it nowadays. Yeah, you know, I don't know.
00:19:53 - Will Johnson
Yeah, and that's the thing, right, is passwords have been around for so long, just like Anthony says, since Julius Caesar is kind of what people are comfortable with. So just like I said, how my grandma wouldn't want to download a password manager, she probably wouldn't want to put her fingerprint on it to log in either. And that's mainly because, you know, it's just hard for people to change. For years and years we use passwords and it's kind of been the way. So it's going to take some time to get people to switch over to something different.
00:20:29 - Henri Helvetica
I think one of the challenges, and I'm not super well-versed in passwords and whatnot, but I think one of the challenges has always been the strength of the password. I believe that often enough people just don't go in and put together a password that is comfortably strong. Right. So that being said, you know, and whatever, I'm not, like I said, I'm far from being a password expert. But a couple sort of streams or a couple channels I watch on YouTube, if anyone's familiar with compu... I forget, but it's like a bunch of math and, you know, computer wizards, they have a channel and I've watched just like the two- or three-part series on passwords and they talk about what is a strong password, what isn't. Because a lot of times it's about, you know, people using words. So often enough they talk about like splitting the words up in like two or three parts, you know. So sometimes these words may not make sense on paper, but, you know, it'll be stuck in your head. But I'm also curious because I think we've also had an increase of computer power. You know, CPUs are a lot faster and computers could really kind of scan through potential passwords in mere seconds now, you know, and I was watching this demo where they were doing it and that's why I was like, oh.
00:22:18 - Henri Helvetica
So that's why they're saying, like, the easier the password, obviously, you know, the quicker it'll be. It can be sort of found and whatnot. So I get back to this whole idea of literacy, which I'll talk about eventually. So I think that if people are taught differently about passwords, you may get a different outcome. But I think a lot of people are like, hey, I'm just going to use my date of birth. You know, it's like boom, done. You know, found in minutes. You know, that kind of stuff. So I think about that a lot.
00:22:54 - Will Johnson
Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. There isn't a lot of good passwords chosen. I think the most common password that got leaked is like soccer123 or something like that. I believe that's it. It could have changed. That was a few years ago.
00:23:13 - Anthony Campolo
It's way worse. The most common one is 123456. Oh man, no joke.
00:23:23 - Will Johnson
But that's the part where I try to think of it from the user's perspective, is that, you know, we think about how many times we have to create passwords because now, you know, because everyone wants your data, they want to send you emails, they want to give you a Facebook pixel so they can track you on 47 different websites, right? You have to create a password for so many things. It kind of gets... from a user perspective, it kind of gets exhausting. Like, I don't know if people saw a tweet that I sent out the other day, or it wasn't from me, but it was something I retweeted for someone else. It was like, "I ain't got no more passwords in me, bro." Like, that's what somebody said. And that tweet got lots of likes, lots of views. It's like, trying to come up with a secure password is a lot of work for the average user when all they're trying to do is buy a pizza, right? I can see if it's like your bank, you know, or like your unemployment information or something secure like that.
00:24:34 - Will Johnson
But you know, if all you're trying to do is, you know, like, for example, I had to volunteer coach for my daughter's soccer team. Like, I just wanted to coach, sign the waiver and keep it moving. Like, I didn't really want to think of how can I create a secure password because, you know, it's not really something important. It's probably the only time I'll log into that portal. So I think instead of, you know, asking the user or putting more work on the user to keep their stuff secure, we kind of get rid of the problem, which is passwords in general, because there's already too many. I think they said, like, the average person has 108, like, just all through their Internet history. That's a lot. And trying to make all of those unique, it's not even happening. Like, no one's making, like, 108 unique passwords. You could use a password manager, but it's like, it's another thing to do when, and again, this is my personal experience, I can just press a button on my laptop and I'm in and I don't have to worry about any of that stuff.
00:25:48 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, I'm a big fan of my password manager because it has the thumbprint on my computer and then I use the face for my phone. I was a little worried about the face one for a while because I know that, like, the thing I was always thinking is, like, well, what if someone just, like, took my phone, just, like, put it up to my face, and then I saw a setting where if, like, you don't look at it, then it won't open up. So, like, if someone tried to put up your face, you just, like, close your eyes. I don't know if that's actually going to work or not, but at this point I don't think I need opsec that strong because I'm just a dev rel and none of the secrets are on my computer. I don't worry about it too much, but for the most part, like, I really enjoy having the convenience of being able to do that. And then I generate passwords that are then kind of filled in by the thumbprint. So that's been a pretty good workflow for me. I do want to... we're going to hop around a little bit in this space.
00:26:47 - Anthony Campolo
I want to give Henri a chance to kind of give his talk pitch. I know he'll have to hop at a certain point as well, but we'll let Henri speak, give his little pitch, and then we'll open it up for the crowd. If anyone wants to come up and ask questions of either of you about your talks.
00:27:01 - Henri Helvetica
Yeah, for sure. Thanks. And to sort of, you know, well, sort of close out a statement from my end with regards to passwords and all the means or the new means by which, you know, we might be able to sort of generate one, I think there's going to be sort of like a user experience hurdle, you know. And I think the idea that some of these new methods of securing, you know, your data through, like, thumbprint or face or whatever, I think will also require a bit of an opt-in before it's really kind of widely adopted. Because I'll tell you right now, like, about I think sometime last year I was checking in for a flight and they're like, yeah, look into the camera. I'm like, why? Like, my passport is here. They're like, no, no, no, look into the camera. I'm like, no, no, no, scan my passport, you know. And even though they have all the information from my passport, it's still the idea that they just kind of wanted a shot of me when they really had all the information they had right there.
00:28:09 - Henri Helvetica
So I think there's going to be a little bit of, like I said, I think some explaining to do to get some of that sorted. So. But that being said, yeah, it'll be interesting.
00:28:23 - Scott Steinlage
Dude, that's so interesting you say that. Do you recall, was that here in the States?
00:28:28 - Henri Helvetica
Oh, absolutely.
00:28:30 - Scott Steinlage
Oh, wow, that's crazy because I remember when I went to China, that definitely happened. Even when you get off a freaking bus, public transportation, they go through and take pictures of every single person sitting in the seat.
00:28:40 - Henri Helvetica
Yeah, it's crazy.
00:28:42 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah.
00:28:43 - Henri Helvetica
That being said, I'll get into my little bit real quick. So as I mentioned a few years ago, I had this idea of, you know, just kind of like a friendly lightning talk presentation where I kind of went through the alphabet and I associated every letter with a performance technology or a term or attribute or something of the sort. And this is actually at Google and I just remember the response, people like, you know, I really had fun with this and just gave me a bunch of reasons why. And I always used it as a lightning talk given the opportunity. But then sometime last year, I decided to kind of expand it and just make it like a longer version. And essentially it's kind of like a way I try to onboard people into performance in the sense that I do realize, especially today in 2023, performance is a lot more complicated and there's a lot of stuff that people haven't heard or come across or whatnot. So in order to sort of help promote literacy around performance, I decided to sort of bring this to Miami for the conference.
00:29:56 - Henri Helvetica
And you know, I can give this on any occasion, you know, no matter the framework to an extent. And it's really about just the web and, you know, what is sort of like on the web, you know, what we see. So WebPageTest will sit there and we'll, you know, scan a site and we're like, okay, this is what it looks like when you sort of look under the hood and, you know, we talk about it. And so with this presentation, which is called R is for React, it's really just kind of going through performance terminologies that people may or may not know. But I'm actually going to add a twist to it by adding content that has to do with React and what we see from React sites on the web. Right? So, for example, I think in this little trailer that I put up on my Twitter profile, I gave like a percentage of React sites that have... what was it? Either way. But, you know, for example, I'll say something like, you know, those of you out there who might be familiar with, I don't know, like image formats, I might say like A stands for AVIF, you know, and I might go into the sort of, you know, technical details of the AVIF format, why it's a little smaller than WebP, why it's smaller than JPEG and things like that, and, you know, the fact that Chrome supports it since I think Chrome 85.
00:31:37 - Henri Helvetica
But then I might tell you, like, you know, this is the percentage of React sites that are using AVIF right now. Right? So I'll take a snapshot of the web and React sites in particular, and we pull data out of it through various means like HTTP Archive or CrUX or BigQuery specifically, which again, has to do with the archive. And we're able to sort of look at the web and say, okay, you know, AVIF is still not, you know, used widely on the web, right? Or I might talk about, say, Core Web Vitals, right? I might say, hey, C is for Core Web Vitals, and here's why it's important. Go into the details and then I'll tell you that, oh, that's what it was. You know, React sites, you know, 53% of them have an, you know, LCP of two and a half seconds or longer. And then I'll go into the details as to why that may not be the best user experience. X, Y and Z. So, and imagine that from A to Z. And it's really, like I said, it'll feel like this onboarding process about, you know, what's happening on the web, and I usually associate it with data as well, so you can have a better idea.
00:33:02 - Henri Helvetica
And yeah, I mean, I want to do that simply because again, you know, in my experience giving talks, I'll bring up some topics and people are just kind of, I've never heard of this. It's like, okay, cool. You know, I'm not telling you it's a bad thing that you haven't, but let me tell you about it. So I want to make sure that, you know, people can leave having this sort of, you know, idea of what it's like, you know, developing React sites. You know, we'll tell you like some of the data will, you know, bring up potentially some oversights that, you know, the majority of people, you know, experience. And, yeah, I mean, it's going to be a fun talk. I love discussing some of this data because it's pretty eye-opening and, you know, these are things that you'll never know until you pop the hood. And that's why we're here. You know, we pop the hood and we'll let you know what's going on.
00:34:01 - Anthony Campolo
Awesome. I want to encourage people to please come up and ask some questions. And yet you may comment about how, you know, in 2023 performance is a little more complicated. I think that's an understatement of this century. As someone who's been involved in performance for so long, like, what is it that makes it more complicated now than in the past?
00:34:24 - Henri Helvetica
Oh man, there's so much stuff, you know, I talk about this a lot. Like, you know, I try to compare it. Actually, I was supposed to give a talk about this tomorrow where I was going to compare, you know, performance to running, specifically track and field. So, you know, I tell people all the time. For those who are familiar with, like, sprinting 100-meter, 200-meter, you come out the blocks and... pardon me. There's a reason why sprinters spend an inordinate amount of time on their, you know, their jump out the blocks. You know, they don't want to foul out, you know, false start, but they want to make sure they get the best start possible.
00:35:12 - Will Johnson
Why?
00:35:12 - Henri Helvetica
Because if you're late out the blocks, there's a good chance you're probably not going to win. In web performance, we have some of the same, you know, I can tell you right now, if you have a slow Time to First Byte, which is pretty much the first metric that we pick up in web performance audits. If it's slow, there's a good chance your site will be slow in the end. So slow start, slow end. You know, we talk about things like, you know, the ability to preload some assets now because we want to make sure that a particular asset comes in as quickly as possible. And that means that, I'm sorry, you'll indicate to the browser, you're like, hey, you know, I know I'm going to send down about 200 assets right now, or I have 200 requests. I want this one request to be the absolute priority because it's going to be my LCP candidate. Largest Contentful Paint. And why is Largest Contentful Paint important? Well, for those who follow things like Lighthouse scores, it's one of the elements that is most crucial in providing the best experience and a decent score. It's also the reason why it's one of the three Core Web Vitals.
00:36:47 - Henri Helvetica
Right? So we get into a really interesting scenario of decision making in performance today, right? You can have a pretty busy site but still provide a really good user experience because you've made decisions along the way as to what gets prioritized, what resource gets loaded as quickly as possible while the others play the back burner, right? So it's a bit of a game of Jenga at times. Obviously nothing's going to fall down, but you start to make these decisions as to, okay, what's going to be the best, what's going to provide the best user experience. And it does require a level of literacy and understanding how resources operate, how the web operates, how browsers operate. By the way, folks, I'll tell you right now, and this is my personal belief, the browser is the greatest application on the planet. It allows you to do so much stuff you wouldn't even believe. But it also can assist you in making some of the best decisions possible when it comes to performance as well. So once you understand how browsers work as well, you'll have a better understanding of performance. And then, like I said, there's some technologies out there that once you know how they work, performance is like a completely different story, you know.
00:38:33 - Henri Helvetica
So I hope that answers your question.
00:38:36 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I've got a little bit into Core Web Vitals and not as deep into the actual, like, browser mechanics themselves, but I find that it's such a great topic to dive into and to specialize in because it's something that touches everybody. Regardless of whether you're a desktop user, mobile user, Apple or Android. It really doesn't matter how you're accessing the web. You're accessing it through a browser pretty much exclusively. So it's just so consequential.
00:39:11 - Henri Helvetica
Absolutely. And you know, it's a good thing you mentioned the browser bit. I mean, the mobile and desktop bit. You know, somewhere in 2016, the fall of 2016, the biggest shift happened. You know, it went under the radar, but it's something that I bring up quite often in some of my talks. You know, the Internet was being accessed by mobile more so than desktop for the first time in history, and that happened in fall 2016. So that's a stat that will never go back. You know, you're never going to see a resurgence of desktop. So that being said, you know, we look at data, yes, desktop data, but more so mobile data, simply because that's what people use almost all the time. And I'll give you some data right here, is that it's kind of like a 6 to 4 ratio right now, roughly for mobile. And once you get into busier and more popular sites like the top 100, top 10,000, top 1,000, that ratio jumps to 8 to 2. So 80% of some of the top sites are being accessed on mobile. So once you know that data, you start to really look at the web differently.
00:40:50 - Henri Helvetica
Like, are you sending all these massive assets down the wire so that people could look at it on a mobile device? I hope not. So, you know, we start to make decisions based on the traffic. Right. If you're mostly mobile traffic, why are you providing desktop assets?
00:41:18 - Scott Steinlage
Right.
00:41:18 - Henri Helvetica
You know, we start to look at things like that and hopefully through some literacy, we get people to understand that this is really happening, you know, because we operate by looking under the hood all day long and we see these oversights.
00:41:34 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, I remember there's this term I used to hear a lot when I was learning web dev. It talked about mobile-first development. And the way the term was being used was like super, super narrow. It was basically like, you should design for a narrow screen first. And it's like that's, there's a lot more things that go into the difference between mobile and desktop than just like the size of the screen, you know. So I'm thinking of mobile-first development as like, what does that mean for performance? What does that mean for usability? What does that mean for accessibility? And it makes a lot more sense to build in a mobile-first way. But the length of considerations that go into that is just so massive. And to me, it's kind of sad because it's like I'm on the web hours and hours a day. I use my phone a lot, I use a laptop a lot. And just the phone experience is almost universally worse on almost every single site because it's just going to be slower, it's going to be harder to see things, the ads are going to be more obtrusive.
00:42:36 - Anthony Campolo
There's just like so many things that make it a worse experience. And that's the most common way that people are accessing the site, most likely, as you're saying. So it's a sad state of affairs, honestly.
00:42:47 - Henri Helvetica
Yeah, absolutely. Listen, there are people like, for the most part, I think I'm looking at the room right here. I think for the most part, people first got on the web on a desktop computer, you know, crappy as it was, maybe if you leave North America. And there are people whose first web experience was on a mobile device. And there's a generation who will experience the web almost exclusively on mobile for their entire lives. We have data showing that in some cases the experience is anywhere from 2 1/2 to 3-something times worse on mobile devices because they cannot parse and process, say, JavaScript as well as a desktop. You know, there's a metric that's not going to be, maybe not an official metric, but it is something that the working group, the performance working group, is considering, and it's one called the rage click, which I'll probably talk about in Miami. So, you know, no spoilers, but you know, it's about users tapping consistently on a particular area of the screen because things are not moving right, they're not being responsive. You know, we talked about, you talked about, was it mobile first? You know, there's an API that's not being used a lot, but it's called the Network Information API that I always thought was fascinating when I first discovered it.
00:44:34 - Henri Helvetica
You know, you can base some of the resources that you're sending down the wire on the user's connectivity.
00:44:44 - Anthony Campolo
Right.
00:44:45 - Henri Helvetica
So if the user's on, say, like a really bad 2G-ish connectivity, you can say, I don't know, send an SVG instead of a full raster image. Right. These are the tools, these are the sort of APIs we have at our disposal. And that's why, again, I get back to the idea that literacy is going to change how development, or performance literacy, could certainly change how development is done because you understand what's at stake.
00:45:25 - Anthony Campolo
Definitely. I just pinned a link to that up top. Cool. So how does performance and security intersect?
00:45:41 - Henri Helvetica
It does, actually. Well, let the Fresh Prince of JavaScript get into that.
00:45:52 - Will Johnson
I haven't gone in depth on the topic, so I probably wouldn't have the best answer. But you know, I can see how slow performance, at least from a user's perspective, can make something seem insecure or maybe even just janky, and make it less trustworthy.
00:46:17 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, that's a good point. I would also say, you know, if someone is frustrated about the speed of something, they're going to want a faster solution. And when it comes to security, usually faster is less secure and slower is more secure. This is kind of like one of those fundamental laws that just making something more secure usually means adding more steps. So, you know, it's not like a literal webpage-loading thing, like having to stop, go get a two-factor auth code, go plug that in. There may be multiple redirects. There may be a lot going on there. So that could be kind of one thing that could cause the two to intersect with each other.
00:46:57 - Henri Helvetica
I mean, we look for vulnerabilities as well. You know, sometimes particular versions that are being used aren't updated or something of the sort. And at which point, you know, your browser, again, the greatest application on the planet, might actually block it. Right. And then you end up with a situation where you have potentially a resource you absolutely need for your web app to sort of operate properly. But, you know, if it's not meeting a particular security standard, it may not load and then you suddenly have a sort of like SPOF, single point of failure, potentially, and then your whole application goes down the tubes. Right. So, you know, we spend a lot of time looking at waterfalls. And, you know, we talked about earlier, we talked about fingerprints. I mean, the waterfall is almost like the web's fingerprint. Like, what is going on here? And, you know, we'll see things and that's what, again, you know, we talk about, you know, every single resource on a page has impact in performance. Right. So, you know, how is it being loaded, how big are the resources, you know, is it a blocking resource, etc.
00:48:48 - Henri Helvetica
Etc. I feel like I'm getting away from my React talk here, which is all good.
00:48:58 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, for sure. I just want to once again let everyone know you are welcome to join and ask some questions. We got these two awesome speakers up here willing to chat with you. Scott, you want to give us a station break while that happens?
00:49:15 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Hey guys. Yeah, Will, thank you so much for joining us and giving your bit on your talks that you're gonna be doing React Miami and just, you know, a little bit of good conversation really more than anything, and we always appreciate that. Thank you so much. I want to say, hey, if you're new here, thank you so much for joining us. You are amazing. No, really, you are. Thank you. And also, you know, whether you're a beginner or a long-time developer doesn't matter. We want to hear from everybody. So like Anthony was saying, feel free to request to come up, ask questions, state opinions, you know, whatever you'd like to do. We want to hear from you because you bring more value here. And by the way, if you've gotten value from Fresh Prince here, you know, Will or Henri, or anybody else that has been speaking up here, please feel free to click on their face there and follow them if you're not already. Because I promise you, if you feel like you've gotten some value from them here, you're going to get value from them in other places and you're going to want to hear and follow them.
00:50:30 - Scott Steinlage
So do it, do it, do it. And, you know, of course JavaScript Jam wouldn't mind a follow too, because you don't want to miss out on everything that we do every week because we do this every Wednesday, 12pm Pacific Standard Time. Plus we are doing a collaboration with React Miami and a few other events. In fact, Remix is coming up. Remix Conference. Hey, we're going to be doing that too, so just kind of throwing those things out there for y'all. But super excited and so glad to have these two amazing people on here today with us speaking about their passions and where they lie and what, you know, what we can do to improve upon some of these things or just gain knowledge on. So super excited for all that. All right, y'all, let's continue. Oh, wait, one last thing, actually. My apologies. If you have not already subscribed to our JavaScript Jam newsletter, you would've known that Henri and Fresh Prince here, Will, was joining us today. Please check it out. You're going to get some value from it, I promise. And you don't want to miss out on the latest in web development and JavaScript arena there.
00:51:42 - Scott Steinlage
And Anthony writes that, actually, and he's been improving that thing beyond leaps and bounds. It looks amazing. Phenomenal, actually. There's so much good information in there. So feel free to jump on that by going to JavaScript Jam.com and obviously putting in your email so you can start receiving our newsletter there and be in the know of what we have coming up to join us here on the stage on Wednesdays. And one other thing, just two other things actually. Just shouting out Dev's thing that we're doing. You know, the game show that we're doing called Miami Jam on Friday, be on the lookout for that. I'm sure we'll be going and streaming live to YouTube, Twitter, and I think we're going to be streaming to Dev's Twitch account as well. So look out in those places for us. We're going to be having some of the React Miami speakers on there to do this game show like Dev spoke of earlier. So super excited for that.
00:52:39 - Dev Agrawal
Also, one quick thing about that. If it's going to be kind of a trivia-based game show, if you guys have any ideas, any fun questions that you think we should ask our speakers, please let me know. You can.
00:52:54 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, yeah, awesome.
00:52:55 - Dev Agrawal
Anything.
00:52:55 - Scott Steinlage
React.
00:52:56 - Will Johnson
React adjacent.
00:52:57 - Dev Agrawal
And you can also, like, have screenshots or snippets around the question if you want to.
00:53:03 - Scott Steinlage
Great idea.
00:53:03 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah.
00:53:04 - Scott Steinlage
If you want to be involved, that's a great way to be involved with that as well. Plus, you know, hey, the audience, we want to take questions from you guys live as well too. So feel free to join us live. And if you have anything you want to submit pre-stream, then hit up Dev in the DMs. That'd be good. Awesome. And yeah, and then also Anthony and I have our new thing that we do on Thursdays which is kind of
00:53:30 - Anthony Campolo
a little bit of a Scotty Venture.
00:53:33 - Scott Steinlage
Yes, Anthony and Scott's Web Development Adventure. So join us tomorrow on that. All right, that's it. Thank you so much.
00:53:42 - Anthony Campolo
Said one more thing like five or six times. I think.
00:53:44 - Scott Steinlage
I know. One more, one more, one more.
00:53:47 - Henri Helvetica
But I will say one more thing before I have to bounce because I do have to bounce at four, or like at the top of the hour. I think one of the reasons, I remember I see Michelle who just popped in, and it's ironic that she should come in because I'm about to quote her, is that I remember when I applied to speak, she was like, hey, you know, I didn't realize you were into React. And the one thing, there are a couple things actually, the one thing is that I'm into the web, you know, so if you're showing up on the web, like, I'm curious.
00:54:25 - Anthony Campolo
And
00:54:28 - Henri Helvetica
that I think is the one area in web performance that I absolutely love because, you know, we'll sit there and look under the hood under any site. You know, it could be a Vue site, could be a Svelte, could be React, obviously, it could be whatever. And, you know, we're passionate about that. We want to see, like, what kind of patterns, you know, are existing with some of these frameworks and, you know, how they can be best maximized for performance. So it's not really React, it's like, you know, it's just, are you on the web? Cool. You know, let's talk about it. Now, I have been spending a little bit of time in the React space simply because I think React is absolutely established, you know, 10 years next month. And I don't think it's really slowing down. If anything, I feel like it's picking up steam again, you know, so we like to see what's going on. We like to see how people are developing sites, how they're showing up on the web, you know, and what kind of user experience they're providing overall. And the one thing I want to say before I jump out is the following.
00:55:45 - Henri Helvetica
And one of the things that has been super duper interesting is the fact that the modern web is pretty complex. As Anthony said, if you start to look at web performance, it's gotten complex because the web has gotten complex. And we're trying to make the best of these complexities in providing good user experiences. And the one thing that has been pretty shocking to some of us in the web performance space, once upon a time, the heaviest asset was pretty much always going to be an image. Like that was just easy peasy. It's like, what's your heaviest? Oh, images, come on. Especially PNGs, you know, lossless, whatever. We are coming across scenarios, and quite often actually, where now the heaviest asset on a page is JavaScript, like a text-based asset is the heaviest resource. And honestly it's kind of mind-blowing to think about, but what is now happening is that it's really just kind of providing sometimes a corrosive experience that you can't necessarily notice by just looking at the page. It looks pretty, it's got awesome colors, under the hood it's like tornadoes. And this is what we are looking at a lot closer now simply because, you know, again we could talk about new metrics, like the rage click that has come about through this sort of, like, this abundance of JavaScript that is coming down the wire. And, you know, yeah, we're here to sort of see if we can provide solutions in helping that out. That being said, folks, thank you very much for having me. Like I said, unfortunately, I have to jump out.
00:57:48 - Anthony Campolo
Thank you for joining us, man. Good to have you. Hope to see you in Miami.
00:57:51 - Henri Helvetica
I know I'll see you in Miami. I'll see you guys in Miami. Apparently, I'll need my umbrella, so I know Will's gonna have those short shorts.
00:58:02 - Will Johnson
You already know.
00:58:03 - Henri Helvetica
All right, then. Okay. Cheers, folks.
00:58:08 - Scott Steinlage
All right, man. Thanks.
00:58:10 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, I was gonna ask. We can just ask, I guess. Will, aside from kind of the rain situation, are there things you're looking forward to about Miami specifically? Just like either the culture or an event or, like, just the vibe, any of that. I want to go see the FTX Arena personally. Yeah.
00:58:32 - Will Johnson
Yeah, man. I'm like, Miami's like my home away from home, man. Like, so this is like my third time going in the last year. I love Miami. I was at React Miami last year, took my wife there on, like, a little vacation a couple months ago, and they actually renamed FTX Arena because of the whole thing. Yeah. But, yeah, so I'm looking forward to it also this year. Last year I took my wife. This year I'm taking my wife with me as well as my two daughters. So I'm excited for them to get to experience, you know, something that I really, really enjoy. Hopefully it doesn't rain too bad, like let them get to go to the beach. I'm excited to eat at Bodega. It's a restaurant down there. They have these tierra y mar quesadillas, which is land and sea or something like that when you translate it. It's steak and shrimp and it is delicious. Like, oh my God, I can't wait to eat. First thing I'm doing when I hop off the plane is going to Bodega and then we have beach volleyball on Friday morning for the Choose Your Developer Health Journey.
00:59:47 - Will Johnson
You can go for a 30-minute run with Henri. There's yoga on the beach and then there's beach volleyball with me. And I may or may not have some Miami-appropriate swag for the people who come play beach volleyball. I may or may not.
01:00:05 - Anthony Campolo
So you.
01:00:05 - Will Johnson
You have to show up to see if I do or not. And then just chilling with everybody like last time, it was great. I met a lot of people in person from Twitter. Got to hang out, you know, have like real-life conversations and see. I'm excited to get back, like everything. I'm just, there's 10 out of 10 excitement for me.
01:00:27 - Speaker 6
I just want to make a point that you mentioned Bodega and everybody in this call. If you are in Miami and you do not go to Bodega, you have made a grave mistake. Yes, I'm taking a small group to Bodega on the first day, including the person who sponsored me, Michael Leando, who's also a speaker at React Miami. So if anybody wants to join this small group, it's a five-minute Uber ride. I'm putting together the group in WhatsApp and yeah, we're gonna go eat some bomb food and hang out.
01:01:02 - Anthony Campolo
So.
01:01:02 - Speaker 6
So let me know.
01:01:04 - Will Johnson
Yeah, I need to get added to that group because I'm already planning on going to Bodega like every day but now I can go twice. So add me to that group too.
01:01:15 - Speaker 6
All right, I'll shoot you a follow and grab your number off DM.
01:01:20 - Will Johnson
All right. And also one more thing that I'm really excited about is with Auth0, we're sponsoring the diversity scholarship with React Miami. So we're going to provide tickets to some people for that event and it's, like, part of an initiative that I'm trying to do with Auth0 and, like, support emerging developers. For the people who don't know, I'm, like, a self-taught developer, taught myself, still kind of new to the industry in my opinion compared to other people. I think I'm, like, three years in now and I want to be able to help those people who are coming up along the way because I understand their experience, I understand their fears and kind of, like, help guide them. So we're doing the diversity scholarship and I'm actually going to take those people out and show them a good time as well. So that's another thing I'm really, really excited about and to meet those people, hear their stories, hear their experiences and hopefully build some long-time relationships and give them some advice that'll help them in their careers.
01:02:25 - Speaker 6
If it's cool, after I get your number, I would love to join that little group as well because I'm a new dev and I also got sponsored because I'm from an underrepresented group. So I'd love to meet like fellow underrepresented newbies in tech, probably first time conference goers. I think that would be really cool.
01:02:44 - Will Johnson
Yeah, let's make it happen.
01:02:49 - Scott Steinlage
Yes. I love the connections that spaces can make a reality and happen. Dude, that's so cool. Even just one person getting help, you know, during a space or getting linked up or networked with somebody, this is worth it all for real. That did it for me there. Thank you so much for that. Appreciate it.
01:03:16 - Will Johnson
All right.
01:03:17 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, go ahead, Scott.
01:03:19 - Scott Steinlage
No, yeah, I think that just about sums it up for the call today. Anthony, did you have anything else?
01:03:30 - Anthony Campolo
No, just super excited for React Miami. Thanks, Will and Henri for joining us. Henri's not here anymore. And then thanking Michelle for hopping up for a bit. Thank you, Alexis, for joining us. Once again, thank you, Dev, for helping organize this cool event we're doing with the game show. And yeah, this is just like such a cool team. People have been really stoked to get to do all this.
01:03:57 - Scott Steinlage
100%. Totally agree. And thanks, Michelle, for chiming in for a little bit today with us. Appreciate it. Yeah, it's been awesome. You guys are great, and I'm really looking forward to Miami. Yeah. It just sounds like such cool things, so. All right. And I love good food, so I'll definitely have to check that place out. All right, y'all, thank you so much. And remember, if you got value from somebody up here, click on the face, follow them if you haven't already, because you're missing out. Obviously you're going to get value from them in other places, too, but yeah, with that being said, we will see you in the next one. Yeah. Oh, it's always a good time. All right, thanks. Love y'all.
01:05:09 - Will Johnson
All.
01:05:10 - Scott Steinlage
Peace.