A lively panel debates Douglas Crockford’s call to retire JavaScript, potential alternatives like Blazor, and the evolving Jamstack and composability definitions.
Episode Description
A lively panel debates Douglas Crockford’s call to retire JavaScript, potential alternatives like Blazor, and the evolving Jamstack and composability definitions.
Episode Summary
This discussion opens with casual introductions and sponsor mentions before diving into Douglas Crockford’s provocative statement that JavaScript should be retired. The speakers explore potential successors like Blazor and WebAssembly, weighing their benefits and ecosystem challenges. They then address performance benchmarks, highlighting an Eleventy vs. Remix comparison that sparked widespread debate over metrics and “p-hacking.” Attention shifts to the broader idea of composability—how code snippets, NFTs, and reuse can transform software creation—culminating in a recap of the Composability Summit. The episode also examines the redefinition of the Jamstack, moving beyond static-only approaches to embrace decoupled architectures, composable services, and modern frameworks like RedwoodJS. Throughout, the hosts emphasize the importance of building flexible, future-proofed applications capable of adapting to new tools, paradigms, and business needs.
Chapters
00:00 - 05:03 – Introduction, Delays, and Sponsor Mentions
In this opening segment, the hosts greet listeners and address the minor technical hurdles of starting a live Twitter Space. They exchange friendly banter about delays, the multi-step process of going live, and the occasional quirks of direct messages. The conversation then touches on upcoming plans, including a potential sponsorship by EchoBind. Mike from EchoBind briefly joins to greet everyone and tease future discussions around Bison. The hosts reaffirm this show’s open-mic style, encouraging listeners—both new and experienced developers—to raise questions or chime in on trending topics. This lighthearted start sets the stage for a casual yet informative discussion spanning web development, JavaScript, and beyond.
05:03 - 10:12 – Douglas Crockford’s Critique of JavaScript
Here, the panel dives into a recent interview with Douglas Crockford, best known for “JavaScript: The Good Parts” and the creation of JSON. Crockford’s suggestion that JavaScript should be “retired” becomes the focal point, prompting reactions that range from amusement to mild exasperation. Participants reflect on Crockford’s influence, recalling his attempts to correct JavaScript’s perceived flaws through ESLint’s predecessors and standards work. They debate whether JavaScript’s success stems from its innate strengths or simply from being the only option in browsers for so long. This chapter captures the group’s fascination with Crockford’s longstanding role in shaping JavaScript, and it previews questions about what might come next for the language.
10:12 - 15:18 – Possible Replacements: WebAssembly, Blazor, and the Future
Building on Crockford’s retirement remarks, the hosts explore what could feasibly replace JavaScript on the web. They delve into the growing momentum behind WebAssembly, highlighting its potential for running nearly any language inside the browser. Blazor, Microsoft’s C#-based framework, also enters the conversation as a strong contender, especially given the massive .NET developer base. Rust emerges as another possibility, though its adoption path may be narrower or more specialized. In doing so, the panel raises key questions about performance, browser support, and how to integrate these new technologies without disrupting the existing ecosystem. This segment underscores that modern web development is rapidly expanding beyond pure JavaScript solutions.
15:18 - 20:40 – Reflections on Crockford’s Influence and JavaScript’s Evolution
The discussion circles back to Crockford’s larger-than-life status in the JavaScript community and what his frustrations may reveal about language standardization. The panel notes that JavaScript’s direction is no longer driven by a lone figure but rather by committees representing numerous stakeholders. They debate whether Crockford’s views signal a generational shift, with some praising his purist approach and others deeming it “old man yells at cloud.” The conversation also touches on the historical complexities of JavaScript’s design, from its rapid inception to ECMAScript’s sprawling committee process. Ultimately, the group sees Crockford’s remarks as a catalyst for reflecting on the language’s past and considering its bold new frontiers.
20:40 - 25:25 – Eleventy vs. Remix Performance Benchmark Controversy
Attention turns to a recently published performance benchmark by Zach Leatherman, creator of Eleventy, which compares static site generation times across various frameworks. The chart notably shows Remix taking an extremely long time to process markdown files, visually represented by a line stretching wildly “off the charts.” The hosts examine whether these test criteria are fair or if they reflect a form of “p-hacking”—constructing tests that favor a certain outcome. They highlight the comedic and somewhat trollish presentation, praising it for its viral impact while also acknowledging the potential for misunderstanding among developers. This chapter underscores how benchmarks can spark fierce—and sometimes playful—framework rivalries.
25:25 - 30:41 – Interpreting Benchmarks, P-hacking, and Handling Criticism
The conversation continues to unpack the Eleventy vs. Remix benchmark kerfuffle. Speakers discuss how easily performance results can be manipulated or misread, especially if one framework isn’t designed for a static-site build use case. They delve into the “p-hacking” analogy, borrowed from scientific research, illustrating how data can be selectively interpreted to prove nearly any point. The hosts also note how open-source communities respond, pointing to a pull request that dramatically improved Remix’s times once the test setup was adjusted. Despite the drama, the panel appreciates the humor in such public spats and acknowledges that these debates can ultimately push frameworks to improve.
30:41 - 35:55 – Composability Summit Recap and Web3 in Development
Shifting gears, the group recaps the recent Composability Summit and explains how decoupling software into smaller, interchangeable blocks can accelerate innovation. They highlight talks that covered reusing code snippets, NFT-driven digital property rights for developers, and new ways to think about building solutions. Jay Dash’s session on bridging Web3 concepts, especially around intellectual property and creator royalties, offers a glimpse into how blockchain can intersect with everyday programming tasks. The speakers emphasize that composability isn’t just for hype-driven experiments; it’s a practical approach that fosters adaptability, encourages collaboration, and future-proofs projects in an ever-evolving tech landscape.
35:55 - 42:10 – Jamstack Definition Redefined: Decoupling Beyond Static
In this portion, the hosts examine Netlify’s newly updated definition of Jamstack, which focuses on decoupling the web experience layer from data and business logic. Gone is the strict emphasis on generating static markup as the core principle. Instead, the revised definition underscores an API-first, composable methodology, allowing myriad services and frameworks to play a role. Some on the panel recall past debates over whether “static-first” was essential to Jamstack’s identity, and they note how this shift resolves or at least reframes that controversy. They also explore the potential overlap with “composable architecture,” praising the adaptability such an approach brings to modern web projects.
42:10 - 50:17 – Composability, RedwoodJS, and Closing Thoughts
The final segment ties together multiple strands: RedwoodJS is cited as an early influence for expanding Jamstack’s boundaries, melding front-end and back-end logic in a decoupled but integrated way. The hosts revisit how Redwood and similar frameworks have blurred lines between static site generation, serverless APIs, and full-stack development. They reiterate the growing importance of composability across the tech ecosystem, from specialized code libraries to entire business architectures, especially when rapid iteration or pivots are necessary. Wrapping up, the speakers encourage developers to remain curious, continue exploring new frameworks and definitions, and embrace the iterative, community-driven nature of modern web creation. The episode ends with gratitude, reminders to join future live sessions, and a lighthearted sign-off.