Open Mic with 40 Years of Dev Experience featuring Todd Libby
In this JSJam episode, Todd Libby brings 40 years of dev experience, exploring deceptive UX patterns, W3C accessibility standards, and MagnoliaJS.
Episode Description
Todd Libby joins JavaScript Jam to discuss deceptive UX patterns, his W3C accessibility work, and his upcoming talk at the Magnolia JS conference.
Episode Summary
This episode of JavaScript Jam Live features accessibility engineer Todd Libby previewing his upcoming talk at the Magnolia JS conference about deceptive patterns in UX design. Todd explains why he prefers the term "deceptive patterns" over "dark patterns," arguing it better captures how companies deliberately mislead users through tactics like confirm shaming, fake countdown timers, hidden subscription costs, and difficult cancellation flows. The conversation includes real-world examples from LinkedIn, T-Mobile, AT&T, and MacKeeper, illustrating how these practices frustrate users and can ultimately backfire on businesses. Todd also discusses his work as an invited expert at the W3C, where he contributes to WCAG 3 and the FAST (Framework for Accessible Specification of Technologies) initiative, which aims to address deceptive patterns as an accessibility concern. The hosts explore how the W3C operates, how individuals can participate, and the importance of codifying ethical standards so developers can push back against harmful design decisions. The episode wraps with Magnolia JS organizer Kayla Sween sharing conference logistics, an impressive Southern food menu, and details about Halloween costume contests, while Todd also plugs his upcoming appearance at Connect Tech in Atlanta.
Chapters
00:00:00 - Introductions and Show Setup
The episode opens with the JavaScript Jam Live hosts welcoming listeners and setting the stage for the day's conversation. Scott Steinlage introduces the weekly format, encourages audience participation, and promotes the JavaScript Jam newsletter. Anthony Campolo shares a brief update on his recent honeymoon trip to Italy.
The hosts then introduce their guests: Kayla Sween, organizer of the Magnolia JS conference, and Todd Libby, an accessibility engineer and W3C invited expert who will be speaking at the event. Todd shares his background, including his journey from Maine to Phoenix, his love of lobsters, and his surprising former career as an executive head chef who moonlighted as a web developer.
00:08:19 - Deceptive Patterns in UX Design
Anthony kicks off the main discussion by asking Todd about his talk on deceptive patterns. Todd explains why he favors the term over "dark patterns," noting that "deceptive" more accurately describes how companies intentionally lead users down unwanted paths to extract money. The group walks through several common examples including confirm shaming during newsletter unsubscribes, fake countdown sale timers, and LinkedIn's aggressive premium subscription tactics.
The conversation expands with more examples from T-Mobile hiding its lowest-price plans behind multiple modals, companies bundling users into multiple newsletters simultaneously, and the broader history of these tactics stretching back to mail-order catalog cancellations and 800-number unsubscribe processes. Todd and Anthony discuss how these patterns exploit learned helplessness, especially among less tech-savvy users.
00:16:30 - FAST, W3C, and Accessibility Standards
Todd introduces FAST, the Framework for Accessible Specification of Technologies, explaining it as an optional set of guidelines originally created for internal W3C spec review that is now being made publicly available. The discussion touches on the relationship between FAST and WCAG, and the challenge of making technical specifications readable for a broader audience. Todd shares that WCAG 3 will use plainer language in response to community feedback.
Anthony asks about the W3C's structure and how people can get involved. Todd explains that participation ranges from commenting on GitHub repos to joining community groups for free, and describes how his own invited expert status works. The conversation also briefly covers the split between the W3C and the WHATWG over HTML standards, and Todd shares that he joined the W3C in 2019 and ramped up his involvement during the pandemic.
00:27:08 - Ethics, Business Impact, and Pushing Back
Todd explains what he wants attendees to take away from his talk: the ability to spot deceptive patterns and, for developers and designers, the ethical responsibility to avoid implementing them. Anthony highlights that having patterns documented in a spec gives engineers concrete leverage when pushing back against management decisions. The group discusses how competitive pressure between companies can also drive ethical improvements.
Scott shares a personal experience struggling to cancel an AT&T iPad line, illustrating how deceptive cancellation flows can push customers to a breaking point. The hosts discuss whether companies actually track the negative impact of these patterns on customer retention, drawing a parallel to unreported bugs in open source. Todd shares his ongoing three-year battle with MacKeeper's newsletters as another example of these frustrating practices.
00:37:29 - Magnolia JS Conference Details and Wrap-Up
Kayla Sween takes center stage to share details about the Magnolia JS conference happening October 17-18 in Jackson, Mississippi, at the Mississippi Museum of Art. She describes the event's relaxed format with built-in breaks, sponsor artwork for sale, and Halloween costume contests for both in-person and virtual attendees. The hosts enthusiastically promote the conference atmosphere and community spirit.
The conversation takes a delicious turn as Kayla reads through the catering menu featuring Southern specialties like smoked chicken, braised beef with tomato gravy, black tea brine chicken, and white chocolate bread pudding, drawing excitement from the former executive chef Todd. The episode closes with Todd mentioning his upcoming Connect Tech appearance in Atlanta, heartfelt praise for Kayla and Richard's conference organizing, and lighthearted banter about Todd's lobster persona versus his passionate but reasonable real-life demeanor.
Transcript
00:00:00 - Todd Libby
[unclear].
00:00:57 - Scott Steinlage
Yo, yo, yo. What's up, everybody? Hey, hey, hey.
00:01:00 - Todd Libby
You got echo.
00:01:02 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, I faded it out. We're good. What's happening? Welcome to JavaScript Jam Live. We got back in the house. Well, he was here last week, but back in the U.S. Anthony's with us.
00:01:23 - Anthony Campolo
Oh, yeah.
00:01:25 - Todd Libby
You
00:01:28 - Scott Steinlage
All his lovely honeymoon Italy travels.
00:01:34 - Todd Libby
Yep.
00:01:34 - Anthony Campolo
It was good times. I was tweeting some photos, so people should check out my timeline. You'll see some nice artwork and food and things like that. So, yeah, it was fun.
00:01:47 - Scott Steinlage
Can't beat food. Food's always a good choice to send pictures about. Awesome. Very good. Well, I'm just going to invite a few people up here and we'll get going. So welcome to JavaScript Jam Live. We do this every Wednesday, 12:00 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. Super excited for this one today, though, because we've been doing this little stint here and we're talking about Magnolia JS. Yeah.
00:02:21 - Anthony Campolo
Oh, yeah.
00:02:27 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. Super excited for that Magnolia JS conference brought to you by Kayla Sween. Totally. So she's there under the pumpkin face there. And we have also with us Todd. What's up, Todd? Yo, Todd Libby in the house. Yes. That's awesome. Todd Libby in the house. So glad to have you here today, man.
00:03:06 - Todd Libby
Great to be here. Thank you.
00:03:08 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, absolutely. We will dive more into that in just a second. But I just want to say, if you're listening, whether you're a beginner developer or advanced, it does not matter. We want to hear from everybody. In fact, that just really creates more value in the room for everybody, participating and listening and having fun, and really just opens up some really cool conversations. So if you have a question, if you want to make a comment, a fact, an opinion, a statement, whatever, request to come up and we would love to have a chat. So this is a very open mic atmosphere. And if you have not already subscribed to JavaScriptJam.com's newsletter, simply go to JavaScriptJam.com, put your email in the box, click sign up, and you're gonna get our awesome newsletter that we send out every week that is created by our one and only Anthony, who's here with us today. The last couple weeks it was Ishan because Anthony was on his honeymoon. But Anthony's gonna be picking that back up, and we're super excited for that. He always delivers a lot of great value, and Ishan did as well, actually. Did great, an amazing job while Anthony was gone.
00:04:17 - Scott Steinlage
So super excited to continue that, giving you guys value through that method of email. It's the latest and greatest in web development and of course JavaScript, and what's been happening in the sphere of that. So don't miss out. And not just that, you'll hear about what we're going to be talking about on Wednesdays, typically. So don't miss it. JavaScript Jam. All right, enough said, I think, about that. Let's make some intros, and we'll kind of jump into some things and get rolling. So my name is Scott Steinlage. I'm the technical community manager at Edgio. Anthony.
00:05:00 - Anthony Campolo
I am a developer advocate at Edgio.
00:05:03 - Scott Steinlage
Awesome. Kayla, did you want to introduce yourself?
00:05:12 - Kayla Sween
Sure, I'll just do it real quick. But, yeah, I'm Kayla Sween. I am the organizer for Magnolia JS.
00:05:18 - Scott Steinlage
Awesome. Todd is speaking at Magnolia JS. Todd, what's up, man? Tell us a little bit about you and, yeah, go from there.
00:05:31 - Todd Libby
So I am an accessibility engineer slash advocate. I do my own consulting. I am accessibility for hire, if you will. And I also am an invited expert at the W3C working on accessibility, so WCAG 2.2, which just came out recently last Thursday, and working on WCAG 3, which is many, many years down the road. But, yeah, originally from Maine, living in Phoenix, Arizona. And, yeah, it's hot here.
00:06:16 - Scott Steinlage
It's hot, folks. Yeah. I would imagine that's a big difference in climate from Maine to the desert area of Phoenix, Arizona, certainly. Yeah. How long has that transition been?
00:06:33 - Todd Libby
It's been a couple years now. Just bought a house out here last year.
00:06:36 - Scott Steinlage
Okay.
00:06:37 - Todd Libby
Just settling in. Getting all settled in.
00:06:40 - Scott Steinlage
Cool, man. Awesome. So I gotta ask, forgive my ignorance if I just don't know, but what's up with the lobster?
00:06:51 - Todd Libby
The lobsters? The lobsters are, one, from being from Maine. I gotta keep my Maine card. So I am a lobster fanatic. I love lobster, lobster rolls. Kayla will tell you that I am wearing a lobster costume while I give my talk at Magnolia this year. And it's just one of the foods that I worked with most when I was an executive head chef many, many moons ago, as I did that. And I did web design, as it was known back then, a long time ago. But I was an executive head chef and then moonlighting at night as a web developer, web designer. So, yeah, it's one of my favorite foods.
00:07:45 - Scott Steinlage
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing that personal bit about yourself. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't connect the dots. Maine lobster, of course. Come on now. But the executive chef piece, didn't know that. That's super cool. Yeah. So food connoisseur, would you say? Chef expert? That's awesome. That's really cool. Plus the moonlighting. Yeah, a little bit of a hustle there. That's awesome.
00:08:09 - Todd Libby
A little bit, yeah.
00:08:11 - Scott Steinlage
Super cool. All right, well, we can get into a little bit. Anthony, do you want to kick it off?
00:08:19 - Anthony Campolo
Yes. It looks like your talk is on deceptive patterns. Is that kind of a synonym for dark patterns, or is there a difference there? That's kind of my first question.
00:08:32 - Todd Libby
That's a great question, actually. And I have, over the years, heard the term since it was coined in 2010. It's been a widely used term. Dark patterns has been. I thought about it over the years, and for me, it seems more like these patterns we are seeing are more deceptive than they are dark. Dark kind of gives me the connotation of, oh, it's spooky. Oh, it's Halloween-ish. Oh, it's something you'd see on Scooby-Doo as they go into a spooky mansion or something. So deceptive seems more in tune to me as far as what these companies are trying to do, which is lead users down a path through deceptive means, whether with intent or without intent, to a path that the user does not want to take, basically, so the company can make money or the organization that does it can take your money.
00:09:49 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And because the thing is, they're not hiding it from you, they make it obnoxiously hard to get there. And the way you would expect to go there first doesn't get you there. So they want you to basically give up before you could find out how to quit. So they're constantly diverting you or deceiving you like, oh, I should go here to cancel this, but instead it's not there, so I have to go to a different part of the site to find it. That's kind of usually what I think of when I hear these things described. So that makes a lot of sense to me.
00:10:21 - Todd Libby
Yeah, exactly. Those are some of the patterns. Exactly.
00:10:26 - Anthony Campolo
So you want to call out, like, kind of some of what these are and maybe even some companies or not. I don't know. Feel free to expand upon. I certainly have experienced this. I think anyone who's tried to unsubscribe from things has experienced it. But what are some canonical examples you're giving?
00:10:42 - Todd Libby
Yeah, so you see it a lot when you're trying to unsubscribe from a newsletter that you don't want anymore because it's just filled with stuff that you're no longer interested in, or you just don't want the newsletter. And they fire back with an email that says, "Oh, we're sorry you have to go." And that's confirm shaming, which toys with the user's emotions. And there are people who I've talked to who say, "I felt really bad because I kind of unsubscribed, but I ended up not unsubscribing." That's one way they hook you.
00:11:34 - Anthony Campolo
It's a very like used car salesman kind of thing.
00:11:38 - Todd Libby
Exactly. Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. As far as, you know, you see it a lot. Actually, I've seen it a lot. I saw it when I unsubscribed from, and I use this as an example, I unsubscribed from a T-shirt company's newsletter and they were like, "Oh, we hate to see you go, bestie." And I was like, no, I don't think we were ever besties, but okay. So that's one example. You see it with timers. So if you've ever gone to a site and you've seen a timer that says, "Hey, there's 24 hours left in our sale," and you wait a while and you go back and it's like, "There's 17 hours left in our sale," refresh the page, and if that refreshes back to 24 hours, that timer, then that's a definite deceptive pattern.
00:12:34 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. They create false scarcity, essentially to try and make you feel like you need to make a decision now or else you're going to lose out on something. And the good way to hack this is that sometimes you can use this to get. If you're like, I'm not sure if I want to use this service next month, you can be like, well, I'll try and cancel it and I'll get it for slightly cheaper next month at least.
00:12:52 - Todd Libby
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So that's another example. LinkedIn is the worst, actually.
00:13:00 - Anthony Campolo
LinkedIn is the worst. With these. LinkedIn I. I got signed up once for like, LinkedIn's like gold or premium or something. I didn't realize they had it. Basically you get one month and then it would charge you for an entire year's worth after that if you don't cancel it.
00:13:17 - Todd Libby
Yes, yep, that's, that's definitely one of those.
00:13:21 - Anthony Campolo
I will say they did refund it when that happened to me and I'm like, there's no way I'm paying you $600 for this. So yeah, at least they did refund it, but I had to go ask them for a refund.
00:13:30 - Todd Libby
Yeah, yeah, that's one of the ways they hold you. Another company being T-Mobile, you have to click through, and I also have this as an example, you have to click through a series of modals to get to the lowest-priced tier on their plans because they don't show it on the first screen. So you're making the user dig through to find the lowest-price plan, for instance. That's another way of, and the name of that is hidden subscription. Or hidden costs, I should say. You have to dig for that lowest-price plan, for instance. So those are some of the examples.
00:14:23 - Anthony Campolo
Here's one that I hate when you sign up for. Sometimes when you sign up for services, they'll sign you up for like five newsletters the company has or something. You're like newsletter and a press announcement and blog post. And then when you go to unsubscribe from one of those, it will only unsubscribe with that individual feed. So you're still subscribed to the other four.
00:14:43 - Todd Libby
Yep. Yeah, I've seen those a lot as well. Definitely.
00:14:47 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. Like we go on forever with this stuff. I wonder how much is this? It's like a holdover with like, like you get this with like mail order catalogs. Like I tried to subscribe from a mail order catalog once and they're like, we need like your mother's maiden's bank account. It's like this just totally ridiculous thing. And with those it's so low stakes because it's just I don't want paper junk sent to me.
00:15:10 - Scott Steinlage
But.
00:15:11 - Anthony Campolo
Well, a lot of these are about money. And that really ups the stakes where people want to feel empowered about what they're doing with their money, when they're spending it and when they're not. That's where it gets truly unethical.
00:15:26 - Todd Libby
Yeah, it stems from that time where, you know, you had to send mail in paper form to unsubscribe to something, or you had to call an 800 number to unsubscribe, or, you know, in the early days of email, which now is just a total convoluted process to do so. Yeah, it's a process that they want you to become so frustrated with that you end up giving up and just say, all right, I'll just put up with this, and I'll just delete them from my email and not see them again, for instance.
00:16:14 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. People use this term learned helplessness a lot. That's exactly what it's, especially for people who aren't tech savvy, who can't really parse how these things are connected to your email versus your phone versus your bank account and all this kind of stuff. So what is FAST?
00:16:39 - Todd Libby
FAST is the Framework for Accessible Specification of Technologies. So what that is, basically, is a set of guidelines that we have that was originally intended for internal spec review at the W3C, and now we've decided we're going to release this as public and let people use this as an optional set of guidelines.
00:17:09 - Anthony Campolo
Is this what they use to write WCAG? Is that what you're saying?
00:17:13 - Todd Libby
It's based upon what WCAG is structured like, but it's a separate entity from WCAG.
00:17:23 - Anthony Campolo
Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know WCAG was always hard for me to read, and I know people would always talk about, like, we should make the accessibility standards accessible.
00:17:32 - Scott Steinlage
Right.
00:17:32 - Anthony Campolo
And it's like, well, it's a spec, so there's not a whole lot you can do about that. But this is interesting because it's creating a framework to try and make your specs more readable, kind of. That then is now being ported into something that is just generally trying to make accessible specifications. Yeah, specs are especially such a huge, massive thing. I read a lot of the GraphQL spec ones. It's like specs are almost more for the machines than for the humans.
00:17:59 - Todd Libby
Yeah, yeah. And WCAG was written by people that are very technical, or technical writers. It's a very technical manual. And I'm actually working on something that hopefully, as a resource site, will, for the time being, explain in simple terms what success criteria does what. But I know it can be a process. I get a lot of questions about it and how hard it is to read because it is just so laced with technical jargon, and people can't understand it. So, which hopefully, as we work on WCAG 3, we are going to use more plain and clear language to write WCAG 3, which is still way, way off, but down the road. But we've heard the public, and we've heard that they want to be able to read this and not have to, you know, either ask somebody for help, or they want to be able to understand it easier.
00:19:22 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, I'm dropping some links here and connecting them. It looks like they have a checklist too. That's pretty cool because, you know, giving people really specific criteria is kind of the idea here. So, yeah, I guess, what is your talk going to kind of cover around FAST?
00:19:41 - Todd Libby
So it's just going to basically outline what we are working on as far as FAST goes. So it's an optional set of guidelines people can use for making sure that the technologies they are using and creating are accessible for people with disabilities, first and foremost. And then obviously, as you know, as something is made accessible, that helps everybody. And we have over 1,500 user and functional needs that we've gathered. I did a lot of extensive research into the deceptive patterns part where, you know, I ask people, what are some of the pain points you see as far as patterns in UX and UI goes? So that'll be in there as well. So basically, deceptive patterns in FAST will hopefully address distractions, interruptions, and, you know, lessening the harm that is caused online and hopefully, you know, either physically or emotionally or mentally, lessening the harm as far as that goes.
00:21:10 - Scott Steinlage
Okay.
00:21:10 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. And what I'm looking at here is from the last draft, looks like it was 2021, and the things you're talking about are not in here. So I guess you're kind of talking about the current iteration that is being worked out right now, right?
00:21:24 - Todd Libby
We have an editor's draft and let me see if I can get that into the chat here or. I haven't worked this before.
00:21:37 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. If you just give me kind of the general idea of what link I'm looking for, I can usually find it.
00:21:42 - Todd Libby
If you go to W3C GitHub.io FAST, then you'll have the May 2023 editor's draft.
00:21:53 - Anthony Campolo
Oh, great. Yeah.
00:21:54 - Scott Steinlage
Got it.
00:21:55 - Todd Libby
Good.
00:21:58 - Anthony Campolo
It's the new, new. Getting the newest here. Freshest, freshest W3C actually.
00:22:04 - Todd Libby
Yeah.
00:22:05 - Anthony Campolo
Why don't you explain kind of what W3C is for people who are really kind of noobs on this.
00:22:10 - Todd Libby
So it's the standards body for accessibility, as well as, you know, you have the CSS working groups. So the W3C is the body that develops standards and guidelines for the web.
00:22:34 - Anthony Campolo
Are they the reason we're never going to get HTML6?
00:22:40 - Todd Libby
That would probably be the HTML working groups. So that's a different entity.
00:22:46 - Anthony Campolo
So the HTML working group is not a W3C organization.
00:22:50 - Todd Libby
Correct. They used to be. That's a long story and a slippery slope to go down.
00:22:55 - Anthony Campolo
So, yeah, I've heard about this, the WHATWG group versus W3C. This is kind of like when JavaScript had two rival groups trying to do it. Yeah. Who doesn't like committee fights?
00:23:10 - Todd Libby
Yeah, and it was the West Side Story for web development, basically.
00:23:16 - Anthony Campolo
Okay, interesting. So how long have you been working on W3C? Like, how long have you been part of it? Because, like, it's a pretty legit thing to do. Like if you're someone who wants to be doing the web, like it's, it's, you know, very, very consequential.
00:23:31 - Todd Libby
Yeah. I got into W3C officially in 2019. All the accessibility work that I had been doing for the past two-plus decades kind of led up to that. So before all the pandemic and the COVID stuff hit, I joined a few groups and a few subgroups that we have. And then the pandemic hit, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna hit the ground running since I'm going to be inside for I don't know how long. And so I really got immersed into the W3C around the beginning of 2020 and started really working on the deceptive patterns piece of what I was working on to try and get that, because I had caught wind that there would be a WCAG 3 coming down the line in about five to 10 years. So I wanted to see if I could get that into WCAG 3.
00:24:43 - Anthony Campolo
And is this by invite or do you apply or do you have a company that sponsors it? Like, how did it, like how did you get in it really?
00:24:52 - Todd Libby
So you can participate. One, you can participate without joining by going over to the W3C GitHub repo account and, you know, commenting on repos and stuff. You can join for free through community groups.
00:25:10 - Anthony Campolo
And it was like open source, basically.
00:25:12 - Todd Libby
Yes, pretty much. Yeah.
00:25:14 - Anthony Campolo
That's great because you want these specs to be accessible. And I think that was some of the problems with JavaScript, where the committee was basically whatever companies have the most money to put, like, two people on the committee. And all those people are, most of those people are very, very deserving of being on there. But still, with this kind of thing, there's financial incentives involved, right?
00:25:38 - Todd Libby
Yeah. And that's kind of the way the W3C is. You know, they have people from Apple, Google, Oracle, so on and so forth. They have browser...
00:25:48 - Anthony Campolo
Browser kind of people.
00:25:50 - Todd Libby
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, they do a lot of work with, you know, my invited expert status is that because I used to be with Nobility. They sponsored my status. When I left Nobility in 2021, I just became an invited expert. I had to apply through the formal process, and I go to meetings on a regular basis every week to stay up to date with what's going on and contribute that way.
00:26:34 - Anthony Campolo
Nice. And I find this interesting. [unclear]. What are the meetings like?
00:26:39 - Todd Libby
We do them online. We do them, they're Zoom meetings that we have for the video meetings. And then we use IRC for keeping meeting notes and meeting minutes and stuff like that.
00:26:58 - Anthony Campolo
Sweet. Are there other things about the talk that you want to kind of highlight or like, what do you want people to take away from this?
00:27:08 - Todd Libby
What I want people to take away from the talk is, you know, to be able to spot these patterns and to not get trapped in something like you're clicking on something but it's disguised as an ad, or you're being pressured into doing something basically that you do not want to do and which could lead you down a path to you spending money for something you don't want. So I want people to be able to spot the patterns, know what the patterns are, and, you know, if you're a developer or designer, don't subscribe to these patterns. I know it's difficult for people if they're working at an organization that does this, but there are ethics involved here.
00:28:11 - Anthony Campolo
And you can see once the spec is written, then those engineers can point to something and tell their boss, like, hey, this is against the spec. Like, you don't have to make that moral argument anymore. So that's really important, to have these things be clearly delineated. That's how these things happen with accessibility in general. Those end up being encoded in law, even.
00:28:33 - Todd Libby
Right? Yeah. And, you know, it's a call you have to make. Do I do this because I'm told I have to do this, or do I do this because I just want to do this? But I have a choice. And there are ethical guidelines that the W3C does have online, which I have links to in my slides somewhere, but I don't have them up right now. W3C ethical guidelines. Let me see if I can find that real quick.
00:29:20 - Anthony Campolo
They have a code of ethics and professional conduct. But I think you're talking about the tag. Ethical Web Principles.
00:29:26 - Todd Libby
Tag ethical web principles is one, and the other is, there's a machine learning one as well. I'm sorry.
00:29:36 - Anthony Campolo
Denote. What is this? Oh, never mind. That's just, that's just in the URL. I'm not sure what that is. Yeah, so. So what is tag?
00:29:45 - Todd Libby
So tag is. You got me on that one because I can't remember.
00:29:52 - Anthony Campolo
They don't say what it is in the, in this document.
00:29:55 - Todd Libby
Yeah.
00:29:58 - Anthony Campolo
Technical Architecture group.
00:30:01 - Todd Libby
There you go. Technical Architecture Group.
00:30:05 - Anthony Campolo
Interesting. So it says the web should be a platform that helps people and provides a positive social benefit. As we continue to evolve, we must consider the consequences of our work. Following documents sets out ethical principles that are drive W3C's continuing work in this direction.
00:30:21 - Todd Libby
I was asked at one conference where I gave this talk, you know, the person asked me, what about companies like Google and Facebook and all that? They're never going to jump on board. And I'm like, yeah, they may not jump on board. You know, they're all about the money and making revenue and stuff. But, you know, individually, people can take a stand.
00:30:48 - Anthony Campolo
And companies can selfishly take these stands, and they want to seem ethical, which, like, in the end can also be good. So I think if you make this thing where one company is like, "We care about this and all these other companies suck because they don't," that pressures other companies to be like, "Oh, we have to at least pretend to care about this." And then, you know, it hopefully improves. Like, that could be one way that it can kind of end up shaking out. But you can't expect that to happen by itself.
00:31:18 - Todd Libby
Right, exactly. And you know, that's where we just are trying to give you the piece to say, here's what you know, we think will lead to a more accessible digital experience for people. Do with it as you will. And here are some other resources for you in case you want to take it a step further.
00:31:44 - Anthony Campolo
Man, I love this. I've been complaining about these patterns for so long. I think most web developers are pretty aware of it and very frustrated by it. And it's something that users of the web, they know it, they may not have the terminology to explain it, and they may feel like they're just in this Kafkaesque hell. But they're in the Kafkaesque hell, and so they know, you know, right?
00:32:05 - Todd Libby
Yeah. And I don't know, you know, it's almost like once a day somebody's asking me, DMing me, emailing me about, yeah, what can I do? Because we're taking this component, for instance, and there's a deceptive pattern in there. And I say, all you can do is talk about it to your team, your managers, your bosses, and, you know, just hope for the best, hope you get support.
00:32:40 - Anthony Campolo
I would frame it as users don't like this. So if you force this upon your users, they will reach a breaking point where they will say, because this is so obnoxious, I'm going to spend two hours on the phone to yell at this Comcast employee and never, ever use Comcast ever again. Like, that happened all the time, you know.
00:33:00 - Todd Libby
Yep, definitely. There is a lot of frustration I'm also hearing as well. So. Yeah, excellent point.
00:33:07 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. I think with like, you know, like, you'll get streaming shows. Like, a lot of people will have like five streaming shows. So if one ends up being more obnoxious to cancel than the other, they're like, okay, well, I don't even want to deal with this. Then you just jump out entirely. So I do think there's. You can make business cases for this, for sure.
00:33:23 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. And the other thing is, to me, to think about it too, I was kind of thinking about how, okay, for example, like, I'll just go back to, like you said, T-Mobile. But I'll give you the AT&T example because I literally just went through something like this. So I upgraded to iPhone 15, da da da. And I've had a line for my iPad for, like, I don't know, three or four years. In the last year or two, I haven't really used cellular on my iPad just because I haven't. And so I'm like, it's stupid to be paying like 15 bucks a month for this thing, so I'm just gonna cancel that, you know, while there. And they're like, oh, just go on your phone, go on the app, and then click on the iPad and click cancel line or whatever. And they're like, sometimes it works and sometimes you have to click it more than once. And I'm like, okay, that doesn't make any sense, but sure. So I did that, and then it still wouldn't allow me to. And it kept popping up with call this number, blah, blah, blah.
00:34:20 - Scott Steinlage
I'm like, yeah, it's because they want me to talk to somebody so they can talk me out of doing this. Like, that's exactly what it is. And I'm like, okay, I get it. I understand, like, well, let's have someone talk to you because we want to try and save your business, right? But, you know, like you said, it's like you get to a certain point, like there's this, Anthony said, there's like this breaking point, right? And so the breaking point may not be that for some people, but it could be depending upon what they've gone through, right? If they've gone through this and this and this and they're already so frustrated, then they get to the point where they can't cancel. Now you've probably lost them potentially as a customer forever, right? And so my thought is, like, the data on this for these companies, I promise you that, yes, they have tons of metrics and data for other things and showing how things are converting, right? But do they actually have the data on, well, this person was actually frustrated because they went through this, this, and this, and then they got to this point and then found this piece here that was just, you know, not really easily worked through.
00:35:24 - Scott Steinlage
And then that was their breaking point. Like, do they have these breaking-point data points, right?
00:35:29 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. It's like how open source bugs, a lot of times don't get reported because when something breaks, they just go use something else.
00:35:34 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, exactly. So, and I think if they had that, you know, maybe they would be able to make more informed decisions and not have these deceptive ways as much because they would see them, the negativity effects of it. I don't know. It'd be interesting to see the data. That's all that's I'm saying.
00:35:48 - Todd Libby
Yeah, I went through a process. I don't know if anybody's used MacKeeper to clean out your hard drive on you.
00:35:58 - Scott Steinlage
I remember that.
00:35:59 - Todd Libby
I just once, yeah. I tried the product. I said, well, it's all right, but I, you know, I, I'm not too thrilled with it. So I deleted it. I. What I thought I did was I thought I unsubscribed from their newsletters. And that was three years ago. And they have emailed me every month since I unsubscribed three years ago. And I have done everything in my power to say, hey, stop sending me email now. I just. It goes into my spam folder and gets deleted. I don't even see it.
00:36:37 - Anthony Campolo
This is funny. If you Google MacKeeper, after the website, the first thing is an article saying, "Do not install MacKeeper," on Apple Discussions, saying it's been described by various sources as, quote, "highly invasive malware."
00:36:50 - Scott Steinlage
Oh, geez. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, if you're listening to the show, don't. Yeah, we. We didn't tell you to download it.
00:37:02 - Todd Libby
No, don't download it.
00:37:03 - Anthony Campolo
That's a QA discussion, not an official Mac statement. But, yeah, I think that it's like Norton. Like Norton, the antivirus was just like an actual virus.
00:37:14 - Scott Steinlage
I mean, it slowed your computer down like crazy. I remember back in the day. But hey, you know what? Do your own research on these things, guys. We never said download or don't download these.
00:37:24 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah, right.
00:37:24 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. Whatever you wish to do.
00:37:29 - Anthony Campolo
Awesome. Kayla, what is exciting about this talk for you?
00:37:39 - Kayla Sween
All of it. I'm always excited to hear Todd talk about accessibility. As somebody who's done kind of accessibility as part of their job for a lot of my career, though I've kind of gotten away from it of late. Yeah, it's always fun to hear Todd talk about accessibility as somebody who's been in the space for a while. And of course, like you said, is in on the W3C discussions.
00:38:12 - Todd Libby
And the lobster costume.
00:38:14 - Kayla Sween
Oh, and I'm most excited for the lobster costume. That's absolutely true.
00:38:21 - Anthony Campolo
Are you gonna sing "Rock Lobster"?
00:38:24 - Scott Steinlage
I can Rock Lobster.
00:38:26 - Todd Libby
I can even sing it like Peter Griffin.
00:38:29 - Anthony Campolo
I played that song for my partner, like, a couple months ago. She never heard it. She's like, this song is awful. Why do you like this song? This song is great.
00:38:38 - Todd Libby
What are you talking about?
00:38:40 - Kayla Sween
You know, we should have better, like, audio stuff this year, too, so it'll sound amazing.
00:38:47 - Todd Libby
I'm pretty sure it won't, so I won't sing it.
00:38:53 - Scott Steinlage
That's just your intro song, though.
00:38:57 - Todd Libby
It can be my intro song. I won't sing it, though. I want people to be actually in the seats when I start my talk.
00:39:04 - Scott Steinlage
And not running. Not running for the doors.
00:39:07 - Todd Libby
Exactly, Exactly. We're leaving. We're leaving early. We're out of here.
00:39:12 - Kayla Sween
Well, Todd's the last talk, so they have to stay through his talk. If they want to have a chance at any of the giveaways.
00:39:18 - Scott Steinlage
Oh, we'll snap. Yeah.
00:39:19 - Todd Libby
You know, I also have something planned that is going to be, like, just like five minutes or so, not even at the end of the talk. So I'm just gonna leave that open.
00:39:35 - Kayla Sween
Oh, this is a surprise for me too. I don't even know what.
00:39:38 - Todd Libby
It's sweet.
00:39:44 - Anthony Campolo
Scott, you want to do a station break?
00:39:45 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you all so much for joining us so far. I see some people out there that are usually here with us, bro, Nifty, Nikit. Just really excited that everybody's here hanging out with us today. And, you know, I didn't really talk too much about it earlier, but I will just take a moment to say, you know, Magnolia JS, right? If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, it's happening October 17th through the 18th here. So we are six days out, folks, which is super cool, very exciting. And it's going to be in Jackson, Mississippi, and with the wonderful host, Kayla Sween. So that's going to be such a cool time there. And Richard Sween as well, her husband. So they're quite the deal when it comes to making things happen with this conference. They've been handling it for quite some time now. And, you know, I don't know if many people know this, but they put so much effort into this, even monetarily, and just, their heart and soul is in growing the developer community and letting people see that Jackson, Mississippi is more than maybe what you thought it was.
00:41:13 - Scott Steinlage
And so be sure to go check it out for yourself. Don't just hear it from us or hear from other people, which I'm sure you will hear a lot of amazing things, because over the years I've heard several amazing things about Magnolia JS, hence why we're chatting with them over the last couple weeks about Magnolia JS here on JavaScript Jam. Because we only do things and talk about things on here that, you know, we can say we would back and want to be a part of and collaborate and talk about. So, yeah, I really think you're missing out if you're not going. So make sure you get your tickets if you haven't already. Go to magnoliajs.com. That's MagnoliaJS.com. Get your tickets there and go see yourself a rock lobster in life and in person.
00:42:03 - Todd Libby
You even said that like a Mainer. So I congratulate you on that one. That's props for that.
00:42:10 - Scott Steinlage
Thanks. Appreciate it. Awesome. And if you haven't Already go to JavaScriptjam.com, subscribe to our newsletter, of course, and if you've gotten any value from anybody up here, please feel free to. If you're listening to the recording or if you're listening live now, please click on their face, follow them. Because if you got value from them here, you're probably going to get value from them in other places, too. And of course, JavaScript Jam wouldn't mind a follow, too. All right. Awesome. Anthony, back to you, sir.
00:42:39 - Anthony Campolo
Well, I guess I would throw it to Kayla if there's other things you want to talk about in terms of just in general, the conference, things people should know, what they can do to make sure they have the best time possible.
00:42:52 - Scott Steinlage
Yes. Give us the deep.
00:42:55 - Kayla Sween
Yeah. So we bake in a lot of breaks throughout the conference just to make sure you have time to talk to everybody there and all the speakers and stuff. We will have one sponsor set up. Mr. Kenneth LaFrance is also sponsoring the event, and he'll be selling his artwork there along with Ms. Lamy. So they, yeah, they do acrylic pours and their artwork's amazing. So I'll have to tag Kenneth in one of the replies to this so y'all can follow him because he posts the art that they do sometimes. So that's one thing, is go check out their artwork. Also check out the museum while you're there, because it's in the Mississippi Museum of Art. There's a lot of cool stuff there. I hate that we're not overlapping with the Picasso exhibit, because they're actually getting a Picasso exhibit in November, I believe, is when it starts. So that's disappointing. We're gonna have to, like, plan better next time so that we'll actually have the event when they have a rotating exhibit going on. But, yeah, we'll also have costume contests. So we'll have one costume contest on each day of the event in person.
00:44:12 - Kayla Sween
We'll have people take pictures, post them on Discord, and we'll vote for them on Discord. But we will also have a virtual costume contest on each day. So we'll have a separate channel on our Discord for that. So you can post pictures of yourself in costume and people will be able to vote on that and hopefully get the virtual folks something. I guess it's not really a giveaway because it's a contest, but, you know, have the virtual folks feel like they're part of the event, too. And I think that's about all I got. Bring stretchy pants. You're gonna eat some good food, so make sure you plan accordingly. Let's see. I guess the only other thing I gotta say is don't do anything that's gonna get me in legal trouble or that's gonna make it
00:45:11 - Anthony Campolo
so. I used to run summer camps and something we would always tell all of our counselors, we would say, like over and over again, safety is our number one concern. Anytime someone, they suggest doing something really wild, to be like that breaks rule number one.
00:45:26 - Kayla Sween
Exactly.
00:45:26 - Scott Steinlage
Hold my beard.
00:45:29 - Kayla Sween
Gosh.
00:45:29 - Todd Libby
With.
00:45:29 - Kayla Sween
With costumes, too. I'm just like, okay. Make sure that they're not going to have to call the police on us. The events coordinator person we've been working with, Ms. Gwen at the art museum, she is hyped about the Halloween theme. So, yeah, don't do anything that would disappoint Ms. Gwen.
00:45:55 - Scott Steinlage
There you go, folks. Keep it real, y'all. I think...
00:45:59 - Todd Libby
[overlap].
00:45:59 - Scott Steinlage
I think everybody knows that. Hopefully. I mean, the fact that it has to be said, though, come on. We all know, right?
00:46:06 - Kayla Sween
We've never had any problems with anybody, any of the events, but you never know.
00:46:11 - Scott Steinlage
Gotta put it out there for sure.
00:46:14 - Kayla Sween
Yeah. I don't know if one of these times somebody's gonna come wilding at the
00:46:19 - Anthony Campolo
conference, you know, wilding out.
00:46:21 - Todd Libby
Yeah, I can't.
00:46:22 - Kayla Sween
I can't have that. We do have a code of conduct. It's on the website.
00:46:26 - Scott Steinlage
There you go. Read the code of conduct.
00:46:28 - Todd Libby
Yeah, there you go. You don't want a large 6-foot-2 lobster coming at you.
00:46:38 - Kayla Sween
We'll sic the lobster on you.
00:46:43 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. Don't leave anything out to chance. All right. Very good. This has been fun. I appreciate it.
00:46:53 - Todd Libby
I gotta say it. I gotta say, if I could please, that Kayla and Richard run a spectacular conference. I went in person last year. I had never been to Jackson. They were so open and welcoming. You know, we hung out. It was great hanging out with the both of them. The conference was phenomenal. Lots of great speakers. I love the single track, you know, where you get to hear everybody talk and the different types of talks that are there. And, you know, it was just such a, you know, in the venue, it was such a homey-type atmosphere that it was just a phenomenal conference. And if I wasn't speaking, I definitely would be attending. And I would highly suggest to everybody that if you can get there, buy a ticket, go, and you'll enjoy it. The food, don't even start on the food with me because, oh my, that was one of the highlights. So I can't.
00:48:01 - Scott Steinlage
And that's coming from a former executive chef, y'all, so.
00:48:06 - Todd Libby
But I just had to say that that's awesome.
00:48:11 - Scott Steinlage
Thank you so much for sharing that. It's always great to hear good things about awesome things. For sure. Nick says, how do you boil 6 foot 2 lobster? I was thinking, I don't know, there might be some witches there with some cauldrons. You could probably break it up a little bit.
00:48:31 - Todd Libby
I was actually gonna wear my lobster costume at code mash and jump in the hot tub.
00:48:39 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah,
00:48:41 - Todd Libby
that's the indicator right there. That's how you boil.
00:48:43 - Scott Steinlage
You crank the heat up on the hot tub, and you do it a little at a time. So it's like a frog. Right. They don't know what's coming.
00:48:50 - Todd Libby
Exactly, exactly.
00:48:53 - Kayla Sween
I was just gonna say I should give you all a preview of the food we're gonna have because, yeah, that's gonna definitely sell coming to the event more than anything else, I think. So we're gonna have Southern food, right, both days. There was a caterer that we had last year. We just decided to use him both days this year. We only used him one day, but the food was just so good. So, yeah. So on day one, we're gonna have smoked chicken. And it says it's in, like, a garlic brown butter, it says herb sage natural jus. And then we'll also have braised beef and Gulf Coast-style tomato gravy with rice grits. And then, of course, we'll have some sides like collard greens. And my fried green tomatoes, browser just got rid of what I was looking at. Fantastic. Okay, there it is. So we'll have greens. We've got a field salad, which is onion, tomato, corn, cucumber, spring mix, whatever, you know, your salad option. Let's see, there'll be broccoli and cheese casserole that day and some seared vegetables.
00:50:10 - Scott Steinlage
Man.
00:50:12 - Kayla Sween
Oh, and for dessert, this is the best part. We're gonna have a white chocolate bread pudding. So excited about that. And then there will also be vegan food there. So we are having, oh, I don't have that pulled up, but we're having the Mediterranean place that's local to here, Aladdin, will cater for the vegan folks. So we got you taken care of.
00:50:35 - Scott Steinlage
Awesome.
00:50:37 - Kayla Sween
See, on day two, we're having one of the same things we had last year because it was so delicious. So we're having a black tea brine chicken. That's one of the things we had last year. I think it was fried. It was incredible. And with that, there will also be a slow-cooked pork roast and we'll have purple hull peas or black-eyed peas or whatever you want to call those, cucumber tomato salad, corn, and braised cabbage.
00:51:10 - Scott Steinlage
That sounds good, man. Yeah, yeah, that smoked chicken sounds amazing. I actually. So I have a smoker pellet grill in the back and I just upgraded that actually about two weeks ago to a newer, bigger one because I use it all the time. And I smoked two huge roasts in that sucker for six hours the other day and it was like fall apart amazingness. In about the last 90 minutes or so of it. I put in like the aluminum throwaway pans or whatever with onion and bone broth in there and man, I just made all the difference in the world. And then sealed it up for about another hour. It just turned out so good. So just making me think about. Making me think about smoking some more stuff. I'm super excited about that. That's awesome. The food sounds amazing. Yeah. If you want to just, you know, hang out in Jackson and like, have some amazing food and like, you're not even in the. In the tech scene. Well, you're probably not listening to us, but just buy a ticket just to go get some amazing food and hang out with some awesome people.
00:52:29 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. I mean, seriously, the food sounds worth the ticket price and right there, so. Wow.
00:52:37 - Kayla Sween
I mean, honestly.
00:52:39 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. You're like. No, really, it is. Yeah. Geez Louise.
00:52:44 - Todd Libby
I'm looking to see if I can grab an earlier flight to Jackson now that I've heard that menu.
00:52:50 - Kayla Sween
Well, you're already coming early, right? Yeah, Todd's coming early and we're gonna go like eat our way through Jackson.
00:52:56 - Scott Steinlage
Oh, nice.
00:52:57 - Kayla Sween
After he gets here.
00:52:58 - Scott Steinlage
Oh, that sounds like so much fun. I wish I could join you. Super cool. Well, does anybody have any other. Anything else they'd like to say about Magnolia or upcoming talks they're excited about or anything else that you'd like to mention?
00:53:20 - Todd Libby
If I could, I would like to mention that I'll be in Atlanta for Connect Tech on the 26th, I believe it is. Let me check it out real quick here. I'm giving an all-day accessibility workshop for learning how to audit websites and apps. And let me see. So Tuesday, October 24th to Thursday, October 26th. So my workshop's on that Tuesday and I have a talk on Wednesday about the four principles of accessibility. And there's, again, there's another conference, amazing conference, lots of great speakers there. But Magnolia definitely has a place in my heart. Definitely. So again, buy tickets. Buy all the tickets.
00:54:17 - Scott Steinlage
Buy all the tickets. That's awesome. Cool. Yeah. So Connect Tech sounds pretty cool. Awesome.
00:54:27 - Kayla Sween
So if you want to see, I'll second Connect Tech. It's a fantastic conference.
00:54:31 - Scott Steinlage
Awesome. That's really good. I haven't been to it personally, but I've heard. I've heard a few good things about it. So I. That's good. But yeah, if you want to see more of Todd, you can see him in Jackson and then you can also see him in Atlanta. So I don't think he'll be wearing a lobster costume in Atlanta.
00:54:52 - Todd Libby
You never know. You never know. It fits the brand. So I'll go for the brand. It's all for the brand.
00:55:02 - Kayla Sween
I really hope you do.
00:55:05 - Scott Steinlage
Every talk you do from here on out. Lobster costume. I'm there. Awesome. Cool. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. It's been a blast. Really enjoyed hearing so many of those things that you've been talking about accessibility and just. Yeah, it's like makes me think about all the things with AI though, too. Coming up here with, oh my gosh, like all the AI sales calls that are happening now and so many other things that are going to fall into
00:55:44 - Anthony Campolo
I'll need a large language model to go through the patterns for me. I can figure it out. That would be nice.
00:55:49 - Scott Steinlage
There you go. You could use it as good. I'm saying that there are going to be people using it for bad too, but. Yes, no, that's a great idea. Yeah. Just have the LLM go through for you. Awesome. Well, Anthony, when you figure that one out, you can make at least a couple hundred million off of that.
00:56:08 - Anthony Campolo
So this is one of the first companies I saw pitched, like, a year ago when ChatGPT blew up, was a language model thing that basically negotiates you slightly cheaper car insurance or something like that. So if it's a highly constrained system, it can kind of do it.
00:56:29 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah. Totally constrained. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm excited to see some things come out here soon, some more stuff. So awesome. Pro agent here. Pro agent. All right. Thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. Go get your tickets for Magnolia JS, magnoliajs.com. Hang out with the Rock Lobster, and I'm sure you'll have a really good time. Looking forward to hearing all that happens here in just a few days. All right. Thank you.
00:57:03 - Todd Libby
Thank you for having me. I had a great time today.
00:57:07 - Scott Steinlage
Thank you.
00:57:07 - Anthony Campolo
Todd, thank you for being here. Thanks for your work on this.
00:57:10 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, thank you. For real, like, all the effort and time you've put into it. Sounds amazing.
00:57:16 - Kayla Sween
Oh, yeah. Also, I wanted to give an extra shout out to Todd because Todd helped us set up last year, too. He got in a little bit early and not only spoke last year, but helped us set up.
00:57:27 - Todd Libby
Oh, wow.
00:57:28 - Scott Steinlage
Wow.
00:57:29 - Kayla Sween
Yeah. Todd's. Todd's a great person.
00:57:32 - Scott Steinlage
All hands in.
00:57:33 - Todd Libby
Oh, don't go telling everybody.
00:57:37 - Kayla Sween
He only does it for us, though. Not everybody. Only.
00:57:41 - Todd Libby
I gotta keep up that Twitter image that I'm an angry old man.
00:57:45 - Scott Steinlage
Yes. Right. Yeah. Come on. Yeah.
00:57:47 - Anthony Campolo
I think people who only see your tweets and have not heard you speak might have a different impression sometimes. It's like you got very different modes. And I get why. Because it's like people come at these conversations sometimes in kind of a combative way, but you're not actually. Like, if people actually talk to you, you're a very reasonable dude.
00:58:11 - Todd Libby
So I, yeah, I hope I can, you know, I hope that's the way I come across. I'm not...
00:58:20 - Anthony Campolo
Yeah. I think you come across as someone who's very passionate about the points you want to make, and I think that's totally fine.
00:58:25 - Todd Libby
Yeah. And that goes to, you know, I think just with everybody else, you know, we have people in our lives that are disabled and, you know, where we are. Their voices. I am the voice of family members who are disabled and, you know, I. I'm doing the work for them. So.
00:58:46 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, that's awesome, man. Really glad that you're taking your skill sets and your knowledge and, you know, wanting to put it forth to something good in this world. So not everybody can say they do that. So super cool. All right, well, thanks again, Todd, Kayla, Anthony, for hanging out with me and co-hosting this. Bro, Nifty, and Nicky T. hanging out in the audience this whole time. Heck, yeah. You guys ever want to come up and say something, feel free.
00:59:15 - Anthony Campolo
Lifers.
00:59:16 - Scott Steinlage
Lifers.
00:59:18 - Todd Libby
Get a packed crowd today.
00:59:20 - Scott Steinlage
Yeah, boy.
00:59:22 - Todd Libby
We'll get them standing room only.
00:59:25 - Scott Steinlage
Absolutely. And by the way, Nikita's with OpenSauced now, so that's awesome. Doing a lot of open source stuff, which he really thrives in, so that's super cool. Really excited to see that journey and where that goes for him. I'm sure you're seeing a lot more content from him, as I have been, and I'm sure there's much more down the road, so super excited for that. So follow Nicky T. if you haven't already. All right, y'all, thank you so much. We love y'all. Appreciate y'all. And we'll see you in the next one. All right, y'all, thank you so much. Love you. See you next time.
01:00:28 - Todd Libby
Peace.