MagnoliaJS with Danielle Maxwell Mark Noonan and Kayla Sween

Episode Description

JavaScript Jam hosts speakers from Magnolia JS Conference to preview talks on micro front ends and front end testing strategies.

Episode Summary

This JavaScript Jam Live episode features two upcoming Magnolia JS Conference speakers—Danielle Maxwell and Mark Noonan—alongside conference organizer Kayla Sween. Danielle previews her talk "To Micro Front End or Not to Micro Front End," which explores five considerations teams should evaluate before adopting micro front end architecture, including module federation, state sharing between front ends, and using event buses for communication. Anthony Campolo suggests Astro as a framework worth exploring for micro front ends. Mark describes his creative talk "The Testing Sea Monster," which uses a children's story format to make front end testing concepts accessible, covering the testing pyramid, the role of static types, API testing, mocking versus true end-to-end tests, and contract testing to validate stubs. Kayla shares the history of Magnolia JS, now in its fifth year in Jackson, Mississippi, emphasizing its community-driven ethos, small venue of around 200 attendees, and affordable $200 tickets—costs the organizers subsidize out of pocket. The conversation shifts to AI tools like ChatGPT and their practical uses before audience member Nate joins to discuss his new YouTube channel and the challenges of balancing content creation with family life. The episode wraps with promotions for upcoming JavaScript Jam episodes featuring more Magnolia speakers and a 10% discount code for conference tickets.

Chapters

00:00:00 - Introduction and Show Overview

Scott Steinlage opens the JavaScript Jam Live session with his usual welcome, inviting listeners and live audience members of all skill levels to participate by raising their hand and joining the conversation. He sets the stage for the episode's focus on micro front ends and front end testing with guests Danielle Maxwell and Mark Noonan, both upcoming speakers at the Magnolia JS Conference.

The hosts and guests introduce themselves: Scott as technical community manager at Edgio, Anthony Campolo as developer advocate, Danielle as a distributed systems engineer at Rotational Labs, and Mark as a senior engineer at Cypress working on component testing. Kayla Sween, the Magnolia JS organizer, also introduces herself, setting up a conversation about the conference and its speakers.

00:05:18 - Magnolia JS Conference Background

Anthony asks Kayla about the origins of Magnolia JS, which was started in 2019 by J.C. Hyatt to bring a developer conference to Mississippi. Kayla explains the goal was to raise awareness that software developers exist in the state and to provide local networking opportunities. Now in its fifth year, the conference is still rebuilding attendance post-pandemic, though Kayla remains optimistic about growth.

The discussion touches on how smaller conferences offer a more meaningful community experience compared to massive events like AWS re:Invent. Kayla notes that Magnolia's venue holds a maximum of 200 people, making it an intimate gathering. The group agrees that sub-500 attendee conferences tend to foster the best connections and conversations among developers.

00:08:40 - Danielle's Talk: Micro Front Ends

Danielle previews her Magnolia JS talk, "To Micro Front End or Not to Micro Front End," which presents five considerations for teams evaluating whether micro front end architecture suits their needs. She explains how her interest grew from reading about event-driven microservices at Rotational Labs and wondering how those patterns apply to front end development. The talk covers module federation with webpack, strategies for sharing state across multiple front ends, and the potential use of event buses.

Anthony raises the point that Astro could be a game changer for micro front ends since it handles multiple framework integrations natively without requiring complex webpack configuration. Danielle shares a practical example from her own team's experience managing an admin site, user UI, and bridge component within a single repository, and how they debated whether splitting into separate repos using micro front end architecture would be beneficial for future projects.

00:14:16 - Mark's Talk: The Testing Sea Monster

Mark introduces his talk, "The Testing Sea Monster, A Whale of a Tale About Front End Testing," which uses a children's story format to make testing concepts more approachable. The narrative follows a ship trying to deliver software that encounters a sea monster representing the risks of untested code, with each type of test serving as a tool to overcome specific challenges. Fellow speakers join him on stage to voice characters, making it an interactive and entertaining presentation.

The conversation gets into the technical substance of testing strategy, covering the testing pyramid, Kent C. Dodds' testing trophy, TypeScript's role as static analysis, and API testing. Mark explains the trade-offs between stubbing network requests for speed versus maintaining true end-to-end coverage, and how contract tests can validate mocks to catch stale test data. He emphasizes that the real complexity lies in combining different test types and making practical choices about coverage rather than attempting to test everything exhaustively.

00:21:32 - Speakers' Conference Experiences and Community

Both speakers share their anticipation for attending Magnolia JS. Danielle reveals it will be her first time at the conference and her first visit to Mississippi. Mark recalls attending the online version during the pandemic, praising the organizers for shipping conference merchandise to remote attendees and highlighting Kenneth LaFrance as an entertaining and memorable host who roasts speakers throughout the event.

Scott reflects on how the conference's online experience managed to create a genuine sense of community even from a distance, noting that shipping merch was a thoughtful touch that made virtual attendees feel included. The conversation transitions to Kayla discussing plans for in-person activities around the conference, including potential day-zero mixers, an after-party at the Bean Path, and Halloween-themed activities given the October timing. Mark mentions that Atlanta-based attendees are already planning costumes.

00:26:00 - Tickets, Pricing, and Supporting the Conference

Scott reminds the audience to purchase Magnolia JS tickets, prompting Kayla to explain the pricing structure: currently $200, rising to $300 about two weeks before the event to lock in catering and merchandise numbers. She emphasizes the conference's goal of accessibility, noting that the event will also be streamed for free. Kayla reveals that she and co-organizer Richard Sween are the conference's biggest sponsors, frequently paying out of pocket to keep costs low for attendees.

Scott passionately encourages listeners to support the conference even if they can't attend, suggesting they purchase a ticket and give it away. He highlights the enormous effort and personal financial commitment the organizers put into running the event purely out of love for the developer community, and suggests that gifting tickets could also serve as a creative opportunity for individual or company branding through giveaways.

00:31:04 - AI Discussion and Practical Uses

The conversation shifts to trending topics, with Anthony bringing up ChatGPT's web-browsing bot that would allow it to provide up-to-date information, along with the robots.txt mechanism for sites to opt out of scraping. Scott mentions an article he read about concerns over AI companies monetizing scraped content, sparking a brief debate among the hosts about different AI models and their approaches.

Kayla shares how ChatGPT has been practically useful for her conference organizing work, particularly for drafting emails and generating creative exclamations for speaker announcements. Scott admits he used ChatGPT to generate a JavaScript joke for the show's social media account, leading to a humorous exchange about prompt engineering and the tendency of AI to recycle existing jokes rather than create truly original ones.

00:36:24 - Nate's YouTube Journey and Content Creation

The discussion spotlights audience member Nate, who recently launched his first YouTube video about leaving his lead software architect role to become a content creator. Mark recalls being hooked by the clickbait thumbnail and title, which Nate's graphic designer wife helped create. Nate shares insights about thumbnail strategy he absorbed from creators like Theo and Rocks Codes, describing how he and his wife iterated on designs before landing on the simple formula of a zoomed-in face with minimal text.

Nate opens up about the challenges of balancing content creation with family life, including a nine-month-old and a three-year-old, and how childcare costs in California factored into his family's decision-making. He discusses the joy of working creatively with his wife and explains that the couple had long dreamed of collaborating professionally, making this season of life feel especially rewarding despite the financial uncertainty of starting fresh.

00:44:06 - Upcoming Episodes and Conference Promotion

Scott announces upcoming JavaScript Jam episodes featuring more Magnolia JS speakers, including Taylor Desseyn discussing recruiting and hiring, and Blake Watson, a front end engineer at MRI Technologies connected to NASA, who will present on "home cooked apps." These episodes are scheduled for the following two Wednesdays, continuing the collaboration between JavaScript Jam and the Magnolia JS conference.

Kayla drops a 10% discount code—JSJAM10—for Magnolia JS tickets, stacking on top of the already low $200 price. Scott delivers a final push encouraging listeners to grab tickets, follow the speakers on social media, and subscribe to Anthony's newsletter for updates. Mark highlights the strong accessibility track at the conference featuring experts like Todd Libby, Homer Gaines, and Carl Groves, while Danielle shares her excitement about experiencing the conference's positive reputation firsthand. The episode closes with warm goodbyes and plans to return the following Wednesday.

Transcript

00:00:00 - Scott Steinlage

All right, look at that. Everybody's in the room, in the house, in the space, the space where time and matter is no matter. Right? All right, y'all, thank you so much for joining us today. This is JavaScript Jam Live. Yep. We do this every Wednesday at 12:00pm Pacific Standard Time, and we talk about all kinds of things having to do with, obviously, JavaScript, web development, performance, anything, really. Just fun stuff. But yeah, just saying this, if you're a beginner or advanced developer, it doesn't matter, or aspiring. We want to hear from everybody, so feel free to hit the request button, come on up, join us, and make a comment, question, fact, opinion. We'd love to have you. In fact, it just brings that much more value to the show. Not necessarily to the show, but, well, yes, of course, but really to the audience, right, and everybody involved. It just creates some great, authentic conversation, and that's what we love to have here. So feel free to do that. If you're listening to the recording, thank you so much for listening to the recording. Be sure to listen all the way through because we always have some amazing things, and usually it gets pretty.

00:01:41 - Scott Steinlage

Pretty good and going strong there near the end as well, so don't want to miss out on any cool things. So what are we doing here on this one? Let's see. We'll make some introductions, and then after that we'll jump into things. But we're going to be talking the title here. I'll change it up here in a second. But micro front ends and also front end testing with Danielle and Mark, and they're actually going to be speaking at Magnolia JS Conference. Super excited for that. I don't know if y'all have heard of this conference before. I'm sure many of you have, but those of you who haven't, it's quite the conference. I've heard many great things about it. In fact, as you guys know, we have done some things with these conferences in the past, and they are conferences that we want to go to or have gone to and know the organizers, typically. And we just really love to not have any kind of monetary thing out of it, but just collaborate together to spread the word about these events and just have a good time going back and forth and just chatting with the speakers from the events and things like that.

00:03:08 - Scott Steinlage

So super excited that we get to do that with Magnolia JS. Super cool. Very awesome. This year it will be October 17th through the 18th, and this is located in Jackson, Mississippi. And the organizers of this, it's run by Kayla and Richard Sween, and they're awesome. And I don't know if you've ever spoken with them, but they are some really cool people and they definitely know how to throw a great conference. So if you want to get in on this, make sure to be a part of this software development conference in Jackson, Mississippi, and don't miss out. It's not a flyover state, folks. I promise you. There's some really cool things going on there. Kayla can talk all about that. All right, so with that being said, my name is Scott Steinlage. I am the technical community manager at Edgio and co-host of this here JavaScript Jam. Anthony.

00:04:13 - Anthony Campolo

My name is Anthony Campolo. I'm a developer advocate at Edgio.

00:04:17 - Scott Steinlage

Awesome. Mark or Danielle or whoever would like to go first? It doesn't matter. Perfect. Go ahead, Danielle.

00:04:27 - Danielle Maxwell

Okay. Hi, my name is Danielle, and I am a distributed systems engineer at Rotational Labs.

00:04:36 - Scott Steinlage

Awesome, Mark.

00:04:39 - Mark Noonan

Yep. And I am Mark. I am a senior engineer at Cypress, working mostly on component testing.

00:04:48 - Scott Steinlage

Super exciting. Thank you so much for joining us both today. We're gonna have some fun conversation and really looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say. With that, Anthony, you want to kick it off, man, or, I don't know, Kayla, are you behind the pumpkin there? Do you want to say if you...

00:05:03 - Anthony Campolo

have someone behind the great pumpkin, we should have them introduce themselves?

00:05:06 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, absolutely, please.

00:05:09 - Kayla Sween

Sure. I can introduce myself. Yeah, I'm Kayla Sween and I am the organizer for Magnolia.

00:05:14 - Scott Steinlage

Nice. So excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.

00:05:18 - Anthony Campolo

Okay. Yeah. So I'd be curious to hear just a little bit about, like, how did the conference start?

00:05:25 - Kayla Sween

Oh, I guess that one would be directed at me. So the conference was actually started by J.C. Hyatt in 2019. As far as I remember, it was mostly just trying to start a conference in Mississippi because as far as I know, we're the only developer conference. So yeah, just trying to bring awareness to the area, awareness to Mississippi, that there are actually software developers here and kind of bring all that networking and kind of stuff to Jackson for the local developers here.

00:06:02 - Anthony Campolo

Awesome. And how many years has it been going now for?

00:06:07 - Kayla Sween

This will be our fifth year.

00:06:08 - Anthony Campolo

That's really sweet. That's super impressive. So I'm happy that you survived through the dark times and have made it out the other end. Do you feel like it's coming back as strong as ever? Do you feel like it's still going to take a couple years to kind of get back to where we were pre-pandemic?

00:06:26 - Kayla Sween

I think it's probably going to take a couple years. Just from my experience, I feel like people are still a little bit hesitant. But yeah, I'm sure at some point in the next couple of years it'll go back to...

00:06:40 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah, I've got that same sense from other conference organizers. That's a pretty honest answer. And I think it's okay, as long as it's something that's providing people value. I think the people who are there will really get a lot out of it. And hopefully as travel continues to come back, more and more people will feel comfortable going to these types of events. And then obviously it's like you're probably going to be in a place soon where things are back to where they were, but you have less competitors.

00:07:09 - Kayla Sween

That's what it seems like. I know this year a few other conferences, like, [unclear] last year, and I don't really view any other conferences as competitors for us.

00:07:20 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah, it's not the perfect word, but as someone going to conferences, there's a finite amount that you can go to.

00:07:28 - Kayla Sween

Exactly. And yeah, I always just try to push how special Magnolia is because I know it's hard to get people to come to Jackson, Mississippi, because it's not really a destination spot, you know. So yeah, I guess we're really pushing the fact that we're really a community-driven conference. We're not trying to be anything huge or anything like that, just really focusing on that community aspect.

00:07:54 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah, I think that's awesome. And as I was saying, you can only go to so many conferences. When you're at a conference, you can only meet so many people. So I think when you go to these, like AWS re:Invent, 50,000 people, it's like, okay, cool. That's really overwhelming and obnoxious and I don't like big crowds.

00:08:12 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, definitely overwhelming. I've heard so many people say how crazy it is. Yeah, definitely not. Go ahead.

00:08:19 - Kayla Sween

Not us. We could have like max 200 people in our venue this year. So much, much smaller conference than a lot of the other ones out there.

00:08:29 - Scott Steinlage

I love like the sub-500, I'd say. Just from my experience, I think that's a good number. Just kind of rolls off pretty good. Awesome.

00:08:40 - Speaker 6

Cool.

00:08:40 - Anthony Campolo

So let's get the speakers in here. So, Danielle, you want to talk a little bit about what your talk is going to be on and why you picked it up.

00:08:49 - Danielle Maxwell

Yeah, sure. The title of my talk is To Micro Front End or Not to Micro Front End. It's going to talk about five reasons that teams should think about or discuss to help them decide whether or not this will be the right approach for them moving forward. My first week at Rotational Labs, we started reading Building Event-Driven Microservices, and I was just like, okay, I don't even understand half of this book. And as we kind of got more into it, I just kept asking myself, like, okay, what about the front end? And one of my colleagues actually has worked with micro front ends a little bit, and he talked about it, and I was like, okay, this is pretty interesting, because I was kind of like, is this a good idea? Is it a bad idea? Is this a good approach? And so I just did a little bit more research into it, and I kind of discovered that it seems like micro front ends is definitely one of these topics that's kind of gaining a little bit more traction, where people are trying to decide, is this right for our team or not?

00:09:57 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah, it's something that I've been hearing about for many, many years. I'll be curious. Is your talk going to get into maybe frameworks that are better suited for micro front ends, or is it kind of more about the concept of micro front ends?

00:10:11 - Danielle Maxwell

Oh no, that's a really good question. So I don't really talk too much about frameworks. I talk a little bit more about which approach, for example, exactly how you want to do your micro front end. Like if you want to use webpack and module federation, is that a good idea? Is that the approach you want to take? Another thing I kind of talk a little bit about is that even though the idea is that you don't really want to have too much sharing of information between your multiple front ends, when you do have to do that, exactly how will you do that?

00:10:49 - Anthony Campolo

Interesting. Yeah. And the reason why I asked that specifically is because I feel like, so I was following this conversation pre-Astro, and then when Astro came out, it seemed like a total game changer for micro front ends. And they never really pitched it that way. They never really wanted to say, like, Astro is a tool for micro front ends. But honestly, if you wanted to do micro front ends, Astro, I feel like you'd never have to touch webpack. You never have to touch anything. You never have to figure out how to transpile JSX and Vue and Svelte. It does all that for you.

00:11:19 - Danielle Maxwell

Yeah, I know I've seen people talking about single-spa, but I haven't really gone too much down the track of Astro. But now you've actually given me something to look more into after we get off.

00:11:30 - Anthony Campolo

And they even have solutions now for sharing state between them, which is what you're talking about, what happens when they have to reach out to each other. So yeah, I definitely recommend taking a look at that. But do you want to get into more about what your talk is actually about?

00:11:43 - Danielle Maxwell

Yeah, sure. So it's just kind of like these five things. It's a little broad, I will say, but just five things that teams can think about. As I mentioned, module federation, the ins and outs of it a little bit, is this kind of what you want to do? Is this the approach you want to take? Talking about sharing state, if that's something that you want to do, how will you do that? What are some ideas that you can use? One thing that I talk a little bit about, not too much, but I kind of hint at a little bit, is using an event bus, for example, because that could be an option as well. It may be something that some teams maybe don't think about as much. And so those are a couple of things I kind of get into. But then also giving a bit of an overview of what a micro front end is, because although it's one of those things that has been talked about quite a bit for a few years, there are still some developers who aren't quite sure what it is and exactly how it could be used.

00:12:49 - Anthony Campolo

Totally. And do you want to get into maybe what would be an example use case of someone saying, like, I'm not really sure if I need micro front ends or not? Like, what would be a kind of litmus test, or just an example of sort of like, okay, this is an app that would definitely benefit from it.

00:13:05 - Danielle Maxwell

Okay, sure. My team, we actually were talking about this a little bit after I kind of brought it up because we have one of our apps that we've worked on for a client. We have an admin site, we have the user UI, and then we have a bridge kind of in between there. But we have this all inside of one repo. And it was one of those things where it's like, we probably don't really need to have this split up into multiple repositories. But at the same time it was like, wait, maybe we should going forward. That's one of those things we've talked about a little bit, exactly how do we want to approach, if we were to do this again, what approach would we take? Would we use the micro front end architecture?

00:13:56 - Anthony Campolo

Awesome. Very cool. For both speakers, if you have links at all or things you want to share related to the talk, you can do that on the bottom right. You can leave comments and then we can pin those up to the top. And I was actually about to pin the Magnolia JS actual website to the top. Mark, did you want to talk a little bit about what your talk is going to be?

00:14:16 - Mark Noonan

Yeah, sure. So I'm going to do a talk that's called The Testing Sea Monster, A Whale of a Tale About Front End Testing. And this is a pretty new talk for me. I've done it a couple of times now, and it's sort of a children's story format introducing kind of web front end testing concepts. And it arose really after I got interested in testing years ago and was faced with this really overwhelming amount of terms and options and situations. And I work at Cypress now, and we make a test runner that can do end-to-end tests, component tests, API tests, various organizations of those tests. So I've been thinking a lot about how to, I don't know, engage with this complicated subject of testing in a way that isn't just a wall of different ideas that all seem to matter a bunch all at once to everybody. So this story format follows like a little ship trying to deliver some software, and the ship encounters a sea monster. And the sea monster is complaining about the way they're making their software and the risks of this and that.

00:15:29 - Mark Noonan

So we use each different type of testing as a way to avoid falling into this problem or that problem. And then at the end we sort of sum up by thinking about, you know, how do we pull these things together so that we have a realistic approach to testing strategy, not just, okay, do every unit test and every component test, every API test, and write every end-to-end test that you can so you're fully covered. In real life, we have to sort of make choices based on what we need and what we have the ability to do with our time. And so we spend the kind of second half of the talk, or really the end of the talk, looking at the kind of trade-offs that come with writing tests in the front end. And along the way I get to embarrass some fellow speakers who usually agree to join me and do the voices from the story. So it takes three people to do all these voices while we're going through the slides, and we have a pretty good time.

00:16:23 - Anthony Campolo

I love that. That's super creative, and that's such a dry topic that writing a whole narrative makes a ton of sense, and I'm sure it makes it much more engaging. And it sounds like you kind of covered it. But what I'd be curious about is, like you said, you don't want to have them write every single type of test possible, but even what are the types of tests that are important? I heard you say unit tests, integration tests, end-to-end tests. Are those kind of the main ones you think about?

00:16:53 - Mark Noonan

Yes, in terms of maybe the traditional testing pyramid type concept, and this is really intended to deal with the testing pyramid or the Kent C. Dodds testing trophy where you have maybe a slightly different structure and you include static types as a part of your approach to testing. So if you're using TypeScript, you won't even be able to compile your app if you're making certain mistakes that would potentially get to production in a plain JavaScript application. So those types of testing, and then definitely API testing, like hitting an API and just confirming, when you give it certain data payloads, does it respond in a certain predictable way? Doing that directly without going through the interface of a website can save a bunch of time and be really valuable toward avoiding the repetition of the bulk of an end-to-end test, just to actually check, did the API respond in a certain way and give me a certain value in the front end? So those are the types of testing. And to me it really becomes complex when you mix them all together and you have confusion about what is covered where and what value you're getting from each type of test.

00:18:08 - Mark Noonan

And maybe each developer approaches it a little bit differently, and it starts to feel very nested because I think it's actually easier to over-test if you don't have to think about the choices and trade-offs you're making with your tests. You can just stop when you've tested everything, but that would take you so long that it's really impractical to do so. People definitely have to make trade-offs based on what each type of testing gives you. Does it give you more confidence or a faster development experience? When should we stub stuff, and how can we validate? Like, one of the ideas I explore is how can we validate if we are stubbing the network in a test? So a stub is a mock.

00:18:51 - Anthony Campolo

Right. That's basically the same thing.

00:18:53 - Mark Noonan

Yeah, the idea is like instead of having a test that hits your real website and loads the real data from the real server, we can speed up the test by having like fake data come back immediately and test various scenarios. But when you do that, you introduce a risk where you no longer have a true end to end test. And like the API might change in a way that breaks your front end. So can we use like contract tests to validate our mocks so that we know if our mocks are stale and then we know we have to fix our other front end tests? And certainly it sounds a little bit dry when you lay it all out sort of in a very technical sequence like this of just the steps. But what I think what I'm trying to do is get it to click for people who are listening to this, who are maybe new to testing. And all of these ideas only make sense when you're faced with a particular problem in your development lifecycle where that type of testing helps you avoid making a mistake or helps you have more confidence in your applications like functionality.

00:19:58 - Mark Noonan

So you can sleep a little easier when you merge stuff, things like that.

00:20:02 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah, definitely. It's like I feel like almost every testing talk kind of has to justify its own existence. Like the beginning is some people just aren't even sold on the idea of tests. But once you are, then you're like, okay, now you've learned all this stuff about tests. I know tests are important, but like how do I do it? And sounds like you kind of covered both of those angles. Yeah.

00:20:22 - Mark Noonan

And I have a lot of sympathy for people coming into the industry that are new, and you have to learn, like, the front end ecosystem is incredibly complicated as it is, and testing is like a specialty topic within that. And it also touches non-web front end things. So when I go to a QA conference and I meet people and they tell me the types of things they're testing, like, oh, so you have to take a physical device and plug it into a harness and do all these things so that you can test the embedded system that you're making for the car, so it has fake data that would be representing the dashboard information and you're testing it in. And that kind of blows my mind because my world in web testing is just very connected to websites and how they work. And so if you're brand new to the industry or you're trying to learn about it, you can come into testing through all these different entry points and just be having a really hard time, as honestly as I did, like five, six years ago, having a really hard time putting it all together in a way where you would feel comfortable choosing one type of testing over another for your own development work, even if no one else at your company does it or you're just getting it started.

00:21:32 - Anthony Campolo

Awesome question for either speaker. Is this your first time at Magnolia or have you been in the past?

00:21:38 - Danielle Maxwell

Yes, this will be my first time at Magnolia and my first time in Mississippi, actually, so. So I'm really looking forward to it.

00:21:44 - Anthony Campolo

Awesome.

00:21:45 - Mark Noonan

Yeah, it'll be my first time in person. I did attend online during, like, the pandemic shutdowns. There was an online Magnolia and I thought it was great because they shipped out merch and it was just really nice to get a box of stuff and be watching the conference and in the chat and like, feeling like you were all, you know, I had a shirt from the event and I didn't have any other shirts from conferences that year because we didn't do any. So I thought that was like a really nice just thing about the conference. And also the host was great. Kenneth LaFrance, the absolute legend of a host. Just roasting speakers left and right. It's going to be really fun. Is he back again? Kayla, I guess that's a question for you.

00:22:27 - Kayla Sween

Of course, we could not have the conference without Kenneth.

00:22:31 - Mark Noonan

Yeah. Very, very entertaining, very funny host. So it really felt like a community experience, even being far away at that point, which means when it was coming back I was very excited to submit talks to it and was really looking forward to it.

00:22:45 - Anthony Campolo

That's awesome. Very, very cool. Scott, do you have any questions?

00:22:50 - Scott Steinlage

Yo. Yeah, no, I just think this is a wonderful opportunity for people or developers. I mean, seriously, if you are looking to... I mean, you just hear the genuineness of the conference from people who even were just witnessing it and being online as part of it, right? Like, I mean, from Mark, it's not very often that you feel like, especially coming from an online perspective, that you feel a part of something, right? It's not an easy thing to pull off. And yeah, okay, maybe it's just a little bit of merch, but it definitely made you feel that much more a part of it. And I think that's a very cool touch that they had. I didn't even realize that was the case, so I think that was smart. And I don't know if that was the intention of it, but either way, that's what it did. So it's really cool. And yeah, I'm just super excited. I hope we can make it down there. I would love to check out Jackson and hang out when the time comes here in October. But yeah, are there other things?

00:24:08 - Anthony Campolo

This is a question for Kayla, for outside of the conference itself, like activities or things for people to do.

00:24:15 - Kayla Sween

I'm working on getting a list of things to do around Jackson together and recommendations for food spots and stuff like that. We're also kind of working on some after-events. This is very loose and might not happen, but we're considering having a little day-zero mixer before the event. We're probably gonna have something. Well, definitely, thanks to Auth0 sponsoring, we're definitely gonna have a day-one kind of mixer. Last year we just kind of hung out at the art museum, so we'll probably do that again. But we'll try to have some more Halloweeny activities. And then, yeah, we have an after-party that'll be at the Bean Path again, and we'll try to spruce that up, make it more Halloweeny. So Monica, who helps out with the conference, mentioned having some kind of haunted house or something there. I don't know if we'll be able to do that, but, you know, we'll see. It's gonna be a good time.

00:25:19 - Mark Noonan

I will say with the Halloween aspect, there's several people coming from Atlanta that I know and I think some people in Atlanta also coming that I don't know. But among the people I do know, costumes have been discussed pretty heavily already. So yeah, this is a really interesting theme for a conference and I know some people are coming up with costume situations for this. It might be a very costume heavy event.

00:25:51 - Anthony Campolo

So you should go as TypeScript and just be a type error.

00:25:57 - Mark Noonan

You can't actually get into the conference that way.

00:25:59 - Scott Steinlage

But yeah. Awesome. We are halfway through. Thank you all so much for joining us. Greatly appreciate it. This has been some really great conversation, and I'm really excited for the speakers and their talks coming up. They've got a lot of valuable things that they want to discuss, and just really excited for everybody that is able to attend and watch. So with that being said, whether you're a beginner, whether you're an advanced user, it doesn't matter. We want to hear from everybody. So feel free to request, come up and raise your hand there, and we'll bring you up and you can ask questions, comments, facts, opinions, it doesn't matter. We're gonna hear from you. All right, so do that. Great. If you're listening to the recording, thank you so much for hanging out with us so far. We've got plenty more here to talk about and really excited to continue that conversation. All right, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Don't forget one other thing actually. If you haven't gotten your tickets to Magnolia JS, you should probably go to Magnolia JS and click on tickets on the top right and get your tickets now because I don't know, are they going up in price or do you kind of stay consistent with that?

00:27:18 - Scott Steinlage

How does that work?

00:27:20 - Kayla Sween

So they will go up in price probably like two weeks out just because we have to have numbers to caterers and we have to have numbers for T-shirts and all that stuff before the event. So yeah, tickets will go up about two weeks out. Right now they are $200 and they will go up to $300, which is still probably the cheapest conference you've ever gone to, even if it is $300.

00:27:47 - Anthony Campolo

Crazy affordable.

00:27:48 - Scott Steinlage

It's very reasonable. Yeah. Very reasonable. Yeah.

00:27:51 - Kayla Sween

Well, that's, I mean, that's why we're trying to push getting sponsors hard, because I want the out-of-pocket cost to be as little as possible for attendees. Yeah. And we had to go up on price this year and I hated it. But yeah, I'm hoping at some point we can even get the price down for the two-day event. But yeah, that's really our goal, to make it as accessible to people as possible. And so we are streaming the event too, and that's free. We're not gonna make you pay to watch the stream. But yeah, if you want to come in person, we want to make it affordable and of course we're going to feed you and you're gonna eat good.

00:28:27 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, that southern hospitality there. Yeah, yeah. Some good, good food. Awesome. So yeah, that's so cool that you guys are willing to have your price so low. Like you said earlier, you're not trying to make this a big thing. You're not trying to make a ton of money off of this. Essentially you're trying to create community around this and really help people to understand that, look, we do have tech here in Jackson. And not just that, we love the whole developer community as a whole and we want to just do something great for them, right? Which is really cool.

00:29:05 - Kayla Sween

So definitely, yeah. Richard and I are the biggest sponsors for Magnolia, monetarily and time-wise. So yeah, we put our money where our mouths are, right? We really believe in the community here, and last year we paid out of pocket for the conference. We likely will this year too, just because sponsorships aren't where we'd like for them to be. But, you know, we do it for the community.

00:29:32 - Scott Steinlage

Awesome. So even if you can't make it, I'm just going to throw this out there. If you're listening to the recording, honestly, even if you can't make it, maybe buy a ticket and give it to somebody else if you have the means necessary to do so, because help them out. You know, they're funding this out of their pockets, which is freaking phenomenal that they want to do that. And obviously it takes a lot of... I don't know if you've ever created and done an event before, but it takes a ton of time. Not just money, but time and effort and thought to put into these things. I mean, there's just so much that goes into it. And to be willing to do that, period, and then also back it with your own funding because you're not trying to make a buck, right? That's phenomenal. I mean, that just goes to show how much they care about the developer community and how much they care about just trying to have a good time with everybody. So if you can help do it, just get a ticket, maybe give it away, you know, a couple hundred bucks.

00:30:41 - Scott Steinlage

Right. I think that's awesome. Every little bit is going to help, that's for sure. Awesome. Anybody have any fun stuff to talk about front-end-wise? That's on the move, things that are on the up and up having to do with maybe, I don't know, AI seems to be such a hot topic right now. ChatGPT, LLMs.

00:31:04 - Anthony Campolo

Oh, I saw there's going to be GPTBot, which is going to scrape the internet and give up-to-date information. I'm super excited for that because if you use ChatGPT a lot, you'll notice that it frequently tells you, I don't know anything after September 2021 because the universe ended at that date and time, we all died. But this is gonna be very useful now because it's going to actually answer questions about what happened yesterday, and then obviously it introduces a lot of questions around IP, copyright. But they did something that I talked about in a previous episode. You can put something in your robots.txt to tell it not to scrape you.

00:31:43 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, I read about that too. Yeah, it's like block. It's just like blocking. It's just like you block a crawler from like Google. Right. This is like the same process basically.

00:31:53 - Anthony Campolo

Yep, exactly.

00:31:54 - Scott Steinlage

Which is pretty cool.

00:31:55 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah, it's called GPTBot, web crawler, and can be identified by user agent string. I'll pin this to the jumbotron.

00:32:05 - Scott Steinlage

Yep. I can't remember who it was, but somebody wrote an article and talked about that too. And this was just a week or two ago, and they also stated how they were kind of against ChatGPT because they're out there monetarily making money off of it, whereas they're more for something like Claude or whatever.

00:32:31 - Anthony Campolo

I mean, Claude's not, because it's the same.

00:32:33 - Anthony Campolo

They want Llama. They just haven't looked into it enough to even know what they want.

00:32:39 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, I don't know. There were several different things that they had mentioned, but yeah, it was probably good.

00:32:44 - Anthony Campolo

I was on that call, too, disagreeing with it very strongly. Me and David had a couple arguments around AI already. Danielle, do you have something to add?

00:32:53 - Danielle Maxwell

Oh no. Actually, I didn't. I pressed the button.

00:32:57 - Anthony Campolo

But yeah, if anyone on the panel has any thoughts around, you know, AI stuff, this is like anytime you don't know what to talk about. Right. So what's everyone's thoughts about AI?

00:33:07 - Scott Steinlage

That's like the go-to nowadays for sure. I love AI, though. I mean seriously, it gets me excited. It's like, yeah, there's some cool things going on for sure. I'd love to do some cool things with it too.

00:33:23 - Kayla Sween

I'll tell you, it's made my life a lot easier. ChatGPT has because I am horrible at writing emails and stuff. So I just throw some information into ChatGPT, kind of bulleting out what I want the email to say, and then it'll kind of fill in the details and all I have to do is kind of go through and clean it up, make it more in my voice, I guess. Yeah, love it.

00:33:48 - Anthony Campolo

That's awesome. Do you use it for other things aside from writing emails, or is that, like, the thing you've gotten the most value out of so far?

00:33:56 - Kayla Sween

Writing emails is probably the most valuable thing for me. The other thing I've been doing is, I don't know if you've seen the speaker announcements and that little thing at the top of it that's just some kind of exclamation. I'll just tell ChatGPT, give me like 50 of those. And so I'll just sift through and find the ones that are either funny or actually good. Some of the ones that it comes up with are awful, but yeah.

00:34:24 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, that's cool. So I don't know if you saw on JavaScript Jam, I just did a post earlier today from our X account and it was a joke. It was, why do JavaScript developers wear glasses? And the answer was because they don't C#. Guess what, my friend, homie GPT came up with that one.

00:34:59 - Speaker 6

It did come up with that.

00:35:00 - Anthony Campolo

That's a really old joke.

00:35:03 - Scott Steinlage

I know. Well, I'm just saying, actually, because ChatGPT

00:35:06 - Anthony Campolo

Can write new jokes, but sometimes it'll give you jokes that have already been written.

00:35:10 - Scott Steinlage

Well, maybe that's what I should do, is get better at prompting and telling it what the heck to do. I see Nate is in the audience, and Loki. What's up, y'all? Some regulars to the show. Welcome.

00:35:26 - Anthony Campolo

Did you have anything you wanted to say, Mark? I think I saw you unmute at one point.

00:35:30 - Scott Steinlage

Oh, did he? My apologies.

00:35:32 - Mark Noonan

Oh, that's all right. I was just going to comment on wondering how Kayla had the time to come up with all those little exclamations. I think the one I saw for my talk was Ghostly Galleons, which was sort of a Scooby-Doo vibe to it, I think. And I thought it was fun that she had time to come up with those. But I also did want to mention, for people who are listening to this and don't follow Kayla, you can get a real slice of the day in the life as a conference organizer with these little videos she's putting together. I've seen one or two of those cross my timeline, and I think they're pretty great. And Kayla, I don't know if that's extra work to make those as well, but if it is, that was my first time realizing, oh, you're full-time on this right now, putting this together.

00:36:24 - Kayla Sween

Yeah, it is extra work. It's not as much work as I thought it would be, thankfully. Taylor Desseyn posted all the stuff he uses for that, and that really helped. But yeah, I'm actually filming one today, so this will be in the next one that I'll probably post tomorrow.

00:36:42 - Scott Steinlage

Hey, if you're listening to this on Kayla's end. Yeah, welcome. Welcome to the show. If we're being recorded right now.

00:36:55 - Kayla Sween

Yeah, I usually don't record audio because I'll just do a voiceover.

00:36:58 - Anthony Campolo

Right, that's true.

00:37:00 - Scott Steinlage

That's true, that's true. Yeah. And Nate just actually released his first YouTube video, which was a banger. That was pretty good. Like the editing was phenomenal. I thought it was great.

00:37:15 - Anthony Campolo

Oh yeah, check it out. Post that.

00:37:19 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, it was good. Like for real. It was super good.

00:37:24 - Speaker 6

I need to check that one out.

00:37:25 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, very authentic.

00:37:27 - Danielle Maxwell

Same.

00:37:29 - Scott Steinlage

You'll like it.

00:37:30 - Kayla Sween

I really need to watch it. Yeah, Nate's a good guy. Yeah, we were hanging out a lot in Atlanta for Render ATL.

00:37:37 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, I saw him a couple times and he jumped on the space with us too, which was great. Nate, are you going to be able to go to Magnolia? Are you planning or do you want to? We can bring you up if you want. I know it's always hard when you have a budget you're trying to stick to when you're starting a business to be able to do certain things, you know, that you really want to do and you probably could put it in the budget. But then it's like, but what about X, Y, and Z? Go ahead, Nate. What's up, man?

00:38:09 - Speaker 6

Hey. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for the really kind words. I continue to be blown away by how nice everyone's been about that first video. But yeah, no, Scott. It was so good hanging out with you guys at Render, and I need to look at the schedule. So I've been looking. I have a couple events that I'm definitely going to. I'm going to TwitchCon, and there's a React one that's escaping me right now around the same time in the fall. But yeah, just like you said, my wife and I have been talking about the travel budget, and especially early on it's tough to justify the plane, the flight plus the hotel plus everything, and just getting away from... you know, we've got a nine-month-old and a three-year-old at home, so getting away... my wife carries quite a lot of the household when I'm gone too, so

00:38:58 - Scott Steinlage

it's tougher for sure.

00:39:00 - Speaker 6

But 2024, next year, is when I'm really starting to send out CFPs in particular. So I'm sending one for that conference right now. Really hoping to go to that conference because they're family-friendly. So that's what I'm hoping, to maybe go out to with the whole fam. And just being able to speak as well would be awesome. So that's one of the ones I'm really looking forward to. And as a speaker, they comp a lot of things that really help the speakers out on that one. So in particular, that really helps make things more palatable to the budget, you know, and they're helping out with a couple nights at the hotel and they comp the tickets, all that stuff. So yeah.

00:39:39 - Scott Steinlage

Awesome. Yeah. Man, those are some great conferences you suggested, for sure. Really want to put them up there.

00:39:47 - Speaker 6

Look at Magnolia, though, because I've got family in Tennessee, so I'm like, maybe we could wrap this into a bit of a family trip too.

00:39:54 - Scott Steinlage

Totally. Yeah. Not too far. It'd only be like a couple hours. Right? That'd be really cool. Yeah. And it's always a write off. Right. So go see family. Write it off. I'm not a tax advisor. This is not tax advice. Go see. Yeah, from your tax professional. Blah.

00:40:17 - Speaker 6

I just scrolled the timeline to find it and really good intro. Funny title: Lead Software Architect Quit Job to Make Videos. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a doozy. Yeah, I'm going for all the clickbait.

00:40:37 - Scott Steinlage

Yeah, of course. Why wouldn't you?

00:40:39 - Speaker 6

There's the kids. But yeah, no, I'm practicing all the engagement stuff, and YouTube is a format I think is interesting. Like I've watched some info on how to keep it engaging, have a good hook, and keep it short. So, practicing.

00:40:51 - Scott Steinlage

Absolutely. It's all about that hook. What the hook gonna be?

00:40:55 - Mark Noonan

Oh, Nate, I did see your preview image for that video. First one out of the gate, it seems like you have the pattern down.

00:41:10 - Scott Steinlage

He's got the touch.

00:41:12 - Mark Noonan

Yeah. I panicked on your behalf that you had quit your job. When I saw that, I was like, what. What is going to become of this man? I must watch this video immediately and find out what is next for his life. So it worked on me.

00:41:24 - Scott Steinlage

Nice.

00:41:26 - Speaker 6

Thank you so much for that. And my wife did the thumbnail. She knocked it out of the park. I mean, we worked together on the concept. I feel like I've been absorbing thumbnail knowledge from Theo for eight months because he always has these long diatribes about thumbnail strategy and stuff.

00:41:41 - Scott Steinlage

Him.

00:41:42 - Speaker 6

And Rocks Codes is the other one who, like, he runs a thumbnail A/B testing service, so very much cares about the thumbnail meta. But yeah, we went through a couple rounds. My wife was designing it out and I was kind of explaining to her,

00:41:54 - Speaker 6

Like, no, we really just want my face.

00:41:57 - Speaker 6

And it's just super zoomed in and just like two words of text and a really bright background. She's like, really? And because as a graphic designer, she had a little more nuance to it and some different background stuff. And I was just like, honestly, babe, it's just too much. We just need my face. Blow it up 10 times bigger and like two words. I was showing her Theo's thumbnails for examples. She's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, I see it.

00:42:20 - Mark Noonan

Nate.

00:42:21 - Speaker 6

That seems like a really good strategy, being with someone, like marrying someone else who's also tech-related, because you can vibe out and just, like, in case you need... you know, basically tech is a good way to pretty much always have a job. Unless you're like me right now, but no, unless there's weird kind of circumstances. But it seems like a really good strategy to also be with somebody who's also in tech. It just seems like a good vibe. But yeah, I didn't know she was a graphic designer. That's fabulous. That's great.

00:42:49 - Anthony Campolo

Yeah.

00:42:50 - Speaker 6

And it's been really cool. From when we first got married, we kind of always said, oh, it'd be so cool to work together, you know.

00:42:57 - Anthony Campolo

So you're gonna make her quit her job?

00:43:00 - Speaker 6

Well, no, she's been focused on mom life quite a bit. And I was doing the corporate grind for a bit there.

00:43:07 - Anthony Campolo

And you could quit that job. Just pay someone to take care of your kids,

00:43:12 - Speaker 6

right, dude? Oh, man. If you want to get me started on child care costs, it's insane. Like, I never... well, I did realize earlier because we've got older brothers and sisters on both sides of the family, but when I first heard about my sister-in-law quitting her job to take care of their kids and then coming out net positive on that because she wasn't earning enough to cover the childcare in California, it's just kind of crazy. But yeah, no, it's been fun. This is a season where we're able to work together and spend more time as a family. So that's kind of the real awesome thing about this season from our perspective, is it all kind of worked out. The stars aligned. I mean, we've been saving for a long time. You know, there's some background and some pre-planning. But honestly, it's just fun to work together and do creative stuff together. I really love getting to more of the creative side, and us bouncing ideas back and forth on videos has been really fun.

00:44:06 - Scott Steinlage

Awesome. Thanks, man. Appreciate you sharing. So yeah, just check out Nate's profile there and you can find the video in there. I'm sure he's got a post or two in there. Tweet or two. Whatever you want.

00:44:16 - Speaker 6

I can pin that to the Jumbotron if that's okay.

00:44:18 - Scott Steinlage

Oh, sure. Throw it in there. Why not? Absolutely. Do it to it. Yeah. But I wanted to say also, Kayla was talking earlier about her shorts that she was doing for like a day-in-the-life kind of thing, kind of taken after Taylor Desseyn's style. I mean, she even tagged him saying she was going Taylor Desseyn style or something like that. I can't remember exactly what. And he was pretty excited about that. So by the way, Taylor will be joining us on JavaScript Jam Live one of these Wednesdays. I think it's 10/4 when he's gonna be joining us. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he said. Yeah, yep. Him and Blake Watson, who's also a speaker at Magnolia, super excited for that. Taylor's going to be talking about recruiting, his manifesto, and hiring, things like that, which is awesome. And then we have Blake, who is more front end stuff, which is fun. He's a front-end engineer at MRI Technologies, I guess you could say NASA, which is very cool. And he's going to be talking about home-cooked apps.

00:45:53 - Scott Steinlage

So that'll be fun. Yes, indeed. So stay tuned, by the way, for all that because we're going to have that on the 4th and then also on the 11th, right? Yep. On the 11th we're going to have another awesome kickoff from Magnolia. So yeah, we're just going to be spreading the love, spreading the word, and not just that, getting to hear from some of these awesome speakers. They're going to be speaking at Magnolia, and as you heard today, they're just kind of giving some cool little insights and sneak peeks into what they're going to be chatting on and talking on. And so yeah, it'll give you a better idea as to what it's going to be like at the conference. And you know, you're going to want to go and participate in that and meet, if you haven't already, the speakers in person. This is definitely an opportunity to do that. And not just that, make new friends and just reacquaint with older friends and all that that goes on at these awesome conferences and events. We all know that, yes, the speakers totally make the event and they help to bring in everybody and just really help to make it a great time.

00:47:11 - Scott Steinlage

And I know every event organizer I've ever spoken with, they're just so grateful for all the amazing speakers that they do get to have participating at their event and doing that with them. And it's usually very mutually beneficial for everybody. Just a good old time. And I think Magnolia definitely shines when it comes to just being very mutual and a great time for everybody, including attendees, of course. So yeah, I'm just very excited for the upcoming weeks of this. Like I said, if you haven't gotten your ticket to Magnolia yet, get it now. It's only $200, which is insane for a freaking ticket to any event of this size. If you know, you know, right? And because the tickets will go up in price, as you heard Kayla say, they will be going up to $300 per ticket. So get them while you can at the low, low cost of only 200 bucks. And might I suggest, like I said, you heard Kayla earlier, that they've been paying out of pocket for a lot of these things at the event just because sponsors are very shy right now with the market, which I think is just such a very cool thing that they're doing.

00:48:40 - Scott Steinlage

And they're not doing it because they feel like they have to or it's a necessity almost. I mean, I think they're doing it more out of love and care for the developer community. At least that's my understanding. And if you can't make it to the event and you do have the means to help, I mean, buy a ticket for 200 bucks, give it away to somebody so they can go make it. I mean, heck, you could still benefit from that because, A, you're helping an amazing event continue on. B, you're giving to someone else, which is always a great thing to do. And then lastly, you could roll it into whatever you want. You could do a giveaway of this ticket and then do some really cool things for your own brand, whether that's individually or as an entity. So I think there's some really cool ways to spin that off in a different direction that would just help to soak up some of those costs for them in this process. But yeah, I think that kind of sums it up. Does anybody else have any last things they want to say about front-end development or Magnolia or any of that?

00:50:01 - Scott Steinlage

I know we had some people just join us here recently or just in the last few minutes, but yeah, it is probably about that time because I think React Rally is going on right now, or at least the workshop, I think. But the workshop is probably coming to a close. So I think Dev's out there. Dev, are you out there right now? Are you hanging out? Most likely. Are you planning to attend Magnolia? I'm sure the Clerk crew will be hitting up Magnolia. I mean, I don't see why they wouldn't. And if they're not, I just made it to where they have to now, so... oh, he's sad face, sad face. He can't. Okay, we'll see. We'll see what happens. You never know.

00:50:55 - Kayla Sween

I will say that for people listening in to this right now, there is a 10% off code. So not only is the ticket cheap already, but I'm gonna give you some more money off of it. Hey, so yeah, go to the ticketing thing. Go to magnoliajs.com, I think it's tickets, and the discount code is JSJAM10 and you'll get 10% off.

00:51:21 - Scott Steinlage

There you go. Kayla's hooking it up, y'all. Hooking up our listeners here, hooking up our crowd, the community of JavaScript Jam. If you want to save 10% right meow, go to MagnoliaJS.com, click on tickets on the upper right-hand corner, and then click on get tickets, I guess. And then enter promo code JSJAM10. Is that right? Is that correct?

00:51:57 - Kayla Sween

Yep, that's it.

00:51:58 - Scott Steinlage

JSJAM10. Save another 10% off of an already super low, low price of 200 bucks. And I know I sound like I've been pushing this to get tickets, but it's crazy not to get tickets to this amazing event, especially for how cheap that price is. I mean, for an in-person event with some great food and swag and everything, I mean, it's going to be so cool. So all right, well, thank you so much, Kayla, for joining us. Thank you, Mark and Danielle. Mark, Danielle, do you guys have any other things you'd like to say about either your talk or the conference?

00:52:42 - Mark Noonan

I'm just super looking forward to it. One of my favorite things is the amount of accessibility talks and speakers. See Todd Libby in the chat here. Norando Johnson is going to be speaking as well. Homer Gaines, Carl Groves, Krista Mars, a lot of experts in accessibility, which is one of my favorite fields. And I'm really glad to spend time with all the speakers, but especially to hear a bunch of talks on that topic is going to be really nice. So thanks, Kayla and the organizers. I cannot wait for the conference.

00:53:12 - Scott Steinlage

Thank you, Mark.

00:53:13 - Danielle Maxwell

Yeah, same here. I'm really looking forward to it. I think when I was looking into conferences just to attend, before I even decided to apply to speak at Magnolia, I saw a lot of people on Twitter talking about how much they enjoyed it. So I'm really looking forward to being able to actually experience that myself.

00:53:31 - Scott Steinlage

Awesome. So exciting. I love in-person events. I can't wait. Hopefully we can make it and show up and have a blast with you guys. All right, y'all, Anthony, do you have anything else you want to say?

00:53:48 - Mark Noonan

Nope, I think I'm all good.

00:53:49 - Anthony Campolo

I look forward to the talks and I think Magnolia seems like a super awesome conference. So happy to help promote it.

00:53:57 - Scott Steinlage

Totally. Very good. All right, y'all, thank you so much. We love you guys. Next week we'll be here again Wednesday, 12:00pm Pacific Standard Time, as always. And next week we are going to be doing... I thought there was something, but I guess not. We're going to be having a party. It's going to be fun, as always. Just look out for the newsletter from Anthony and you'll know more about what we're going to be doing. By the way, real quick, I always do this and I don't know why I almost forgot to do it, but I literally always do this. Be sure that if you got value from anybody here up on stage that was chit-chatting, go ahead and click on their image there and follow them. Because if you got value from them here, or even if you felt like it was entertaining or funny or whatever, you're probably going to get value from them in other places as well, right? Not just here. So give them a follow. And we wouldn't mind the follow too, if you want to, but all right, y'all, we love you.

00:55:10 - Scott Steinlage

We appreciate y'all. Thank you so, so much. Kayla, thank you for the opportunity to do this with you guys and hang out. We'll see you all in the next one. Thank y'all. Appreciate it. See you in the next one. Peace.